Apollo too hard?

[Plumfairy]

I've seen several ppl claim that the game is way too easy, even on Apollo. And if I'm playing on a non-Pangaea map, I might even agree with them. But on Pangaea, it seems like Apollo is literally unbeatable. By turn 100-ish, one of the AI is guaranteed to invade with a swarm of rovers & gunners; I'm literally outnumbered 4 to 1. Plus he's 4 affinity levels ahead of me. If I don't expand much & instead focus on military, then I can manage to only be outnumbered 2 to 1.... but then I'm even further behind on affinity levels.

I don't get it. This isn't like Civ where you could find (or create) chokepoints & hold off hordes with a spearman; his forces cut through mine as if they weren't there.

How are you supposed to deal with an AI that both grossly outtechs & outproduces you?

 

[Acken]

There seems to be some exaggeration going on here. Rovers + gunners aren't 4affinity levels ahead. You cannot outproduce an AI but you should be able to match his tech and defend with superior tactics.

You also can bribe them to attack someone else.

 

[Xenotitan]

Well, Apollo is supposed to be really hard. There's the other difficulty levels for people who prefer not to fight AIs with crazy bonuses.

And I don't get what you mean about not being able to find choke points. BE seems to have a lot more impassable terrain than Civ V.

 

[RedRover57]

Well, Apollo is supposed to be really hard. There's the other difficulty levels for people who prefer not to fight AIs with crazy bonuses.

However, Soyuz still seems easy so there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. You can either faceroll on Soyuz or deal with an extreme challenge on Apollo. Neither of those options are particularly fun.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

You can fend them off if you research both defensive buildings, but yes - it becomes pretty hard once they can field affinity 7+ stuff.

In general it comes down to landing locations - if you are close to an AI you are usually better off to only have a limited number of cities as far away fromt he AI as possible. At least in my games that seemed to reduce AI aggressiveness quite a bit and made them attack other players instead.

 

[pwoz]

I found I can generally still faceroll, even on Pangea. There are sometimes where multi dow's can cause problems. Especially since it seems like you cannot get peace until one civ is completely terminated.

The solution is to just bribe your neighbors into wars in the early turns while you catch up.

 

[TLHeart]

I just settle in their face, build a marine, and a couple gunners, then rocket batteries, and defense grid, and pick off their attacking units... until they give peace... Build a couple of rovers to steal workers also.

As time goes build takjets, put them on interception, and in more gunners... and continue to grow my empire behind the front line... this way you pick who attacks you, and it is always around the same turn.

Apollo since the patch, the AI gets a colonists upon landing, so they get that second city up fast... also makes worker stealing easier, as they move the workers around.

One does have to play differently on Apollo now, as the AI will think with their 3 rovers and a gunner they are stronger than you.

 

[omniclast]

For non-domination wins, Apollo is much harder after the patch. The comments people were making about it being way too easy likely came from before the patch, when it actually was way too easy.

Post-patch it is much more difficult to keep up with the AIs in science and econ (mostly because you don't have super powerful trade routes). It is near impossible to "faceroll" an affinity victory; you will certainly be playing from behind until you get your planetary wonder up.

If you're concerned about early DoWs, your best bets are to bribe AIs to fight each other, make external trade routes, and form alliances if you can. Try to steer clear of (or expand away from) Koslov, Hutama and Brazilia, as they seem the most aggressive. PAC, Jama and Kavitha are usually pretty friendly and (probably?) will not DoW unless your status with them falls below "friendly."

Realistically though, BE is much more dependent on start location than Civ5 was. When you roll next to a pile of alien nests and 2 aggressive civs start within 10 tiles of your cap, there's not a whole lot you can do but re-roll.

 

[Xenotitan]

However, Soyuz still seems easy so there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. You can either faceroll on Soyuz or deal with an extreme challenge on Apollo. Neither of those options are particularly fun.

You might not enjoy Apollo but some people do. This calls for another difficulty between Soyuz and Apollo, not reducing the difficulty of Apollo.

 

[Gamewizard]

However, Soyuz still seems easy so there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. You can either faceroll on Soyuz or deal with an extreme challenge on Apollo. Neither of those options are particularly fun.

I agree, the gap between the two levels is massive. There should be another level in between the two, or just make Soyuz slightly more difficult.

 

[Gort]

I would prefer Apollo to be too hard rather than too easy. You are right though, we could use more granularity between Soyuz and Apollo.

 

[CivScientist]

The only thing I'd really change in Apollo is the aggressiveness of the AI. Staring out with an army on landfall makes the AI very likely to DoW you fairly early and often because the DoW calculation seems to be a simple strength comparison.

The problem is, that just means the human player needs to plan for all out war to win Apollo. A domination victory on Apollo can be interesting but, if that's the only way to win, that just gets dull fast.

Personally, I think it would be better if the AI would just maintain a sizable army and not DoW the human player (at least, not very often). Keep the army defensive and make the human player earn their domination victory. Force the player to consider a hard earned victory that doesn't involve large armies and invasions.

 

[TLHeart]

Apollo is no harder after the patch than before... I still win around turn 230 on Standard... I just have to start a little different, and expect that early DOW, and be ready to defend against it. Sure does make worker stealing easier though.

And that is not just domination, which can be won by turn 200, that is the promised land, and emancipation victories. The game is just easy for anyone who understands CIV diplomacy, and how to grow cities... Population is still king, to produce science, which everything revolves around.

 

[omniclast]

Apollo is no harder after the patch than before... I still win around turn 230 on Standard... I just have to start a little different, and expect that early DOW, and be ready to defend against it. Sure does make worker stealing easier though.

And that is not just domination, which can be won by turn 200, that is the promised land, and emancipation victories. The game is just easy for anyone who understands CIV diplomacy, and how to grow cities... Population is still king, to produce science, which everything revolves around.

Are you actually keeping up with the AI in science and score, though? Or just beelining/slingshotting to victory conditions?

I'm finding my bpt is 1/2 to 2/3 what it was pre-patch (on either ITR or ETR focus) and my score is usually bottom 3 vs. easy first rank pre-patch. I'm aware score doesn't matter but it does seem the AI does a better job of econ now. Have only played a handful of post-patch games tho -- perhaps my strategy was too reliant on TRs and I just haven't adapted enough.

 

[Gamewizard]

Apollo is no harder after the patch than before... I still win around turn 230 on Standard... I just have to start a little different, and expect that early DOW, and be ready to defend against it. Sure does make worker stealing easier though.

And that is not just domination, which can be won by turn 200, that is the promised land, and emancipation victories. The game is just easy for anyone who understands CIV diplomacy, and how to grow cities... Population is still king, to produce science, which everything revolves around.

Are you using favors?

 

[Gort]

Apollo is no harder after the patch than before... I still win around turn 230 on Standard... I just have to start a little different, and expect that early DOW, and be ready to defend against it. Sure does make worker stealing easier though.

And that is not just domination, which can be won by turn 200, that is the promised land, and emancipation victories. The game is just easy for anyone who understands CIV diplomacy, and how to grow cities... Population is still king, to produce science, which everything revolves around.

Can you elaborate on your strategy?

 

[Xenotitan]

Apollo is no harder after the patch than before... I still win around turn 230 on Standard... I just have to start a little different, and expect that early DOW, and be ready to defend against it. Sure does make worker stealing easier though.

And that is not just domination, which can be won by turn 200, that is the promised land, and emancipation victories. The game is just easy for anyone who understands CIV diplomacy, and how to grow cities... Population is still king, to produce science, which everything revolves around.

There are things I don't understand about CiV diplomacy. It isn't as transparent as the other mechanics. I think many people, including me, would appreciate a post explaining what goes on behind the scenes if it isn't too much work for you.

 

[TLHeart]

Are you actually keeping up with the AI in science and score, though? Or just beelining/slingshotting to victory conditions?

I'm finding my bpt is 1/2 to 2/3 what it was pre-patch (on either ITR or ETR focus) and my score is usually bottom 3 vs. easy first rank pre-patch. I'm aware score doesn't matter but it does seem the AI does a better job of econ now. Have only played a handful of post-patch games tho -- perhaps my strategy was too reliant on TRs and I just haven't adapted enough.

Understanding of the trade routes helps... the nerf did not slow down my victory times. Specialization of a city helps internal trade routes. Example, start with your capital, set to production focus, get your second city settled in a good food spot, set to food focus... send trade route... get hammers in capital, get food in second city... by turn 50, second city has more population than your capital... Approve a station with food, and send a trade route from capital, grows the capital, but does not affect your other trade routes yields.

I pay NO attention to score, or where I rank with the AI.

Send a trade route to your closet neighbor, for the diplomacy bonus, try and get some science from it. If it is ARC, she will backstab you every time.

After I get done researching biowell tech, and academies, then I concentrate on leaf techs for affinity points to get to my choice of winning conditions. And those leaf techs, in the second ring of the web are researched every 5 to 8 turns.

Are you using favors?

I will accept a favor trade for 3 floatstone, or zenomass, titanium, geothermal, firxite... since I am not using them during the early game. Depending on my needs, I may renew the favor trade, but have notice to ill effect for not renewing the deal. I also accept corporation agreements. Just keep track of them, need to know who likes who. I will also sell open borders for 2 energy to a faction across the map, during the early game. I never give open borders to my neighbor... allows them to scout out attack routes.

Can you elaborate on your strategy?

Population is king, as everything else in the game is keyed to your population.

I do drop as low as -20 health in the early game as I expand to 4-6 cities.. and one of those will be a forward settle on the AI, near a choke point... Early scouting is needed.. so First thing I build is another explorer, and I circle explore my territory first, to identify where my cities will be, where the natural barriers to attack are, and where I can use a choke point...

Need gunners to defend... no offensive wars early.. a marine to be a meat shield is also helpful, and we all get one of those. A rover to steal workers from the civ that attacks you. Again depends on terrain, and your scouting...

I will forward settle, and then back fill to my capitol, so I get the diplomacy bonus of keeping my promise not to settle in their lands. Do Not settle in a flat expanse... that city will die... when forward settling... move it to a hill, preferably with a canyon or mountain on one side.

I dig up ruins, in their territory and then promise not to do it again...easy promise to keep.

ARC will backstab you.

There are things I don't understand about CiV diplomacy. It isn't as transparent as the other mechanics. I think many people, including me, would appreciate a post explaining what goes on behind the scenes if it isn't too much work for you.

Diplomacy, it is not a straight forward mechanic... ARC is a back stabber, regardless of what you do, she will want your lands. You can slow down the attack by NOT settling near her, but she will expand towards you anyway. So I forward settle her, then promise not to do it again... holds her off for a time... send a trade route, may slow down the attack.... just have 2 or 3 gunners, and a marine ready to defend by turn 60. Building the rocket battery in the city helps greatly.

KP likes an early coop... I accept, and if she is a neighbor I will send a trade route. She is easy to keep happy, with a favor trade, or selling one resource for 2 energy.

Brazil, always thinks his military is better than yours, as a neighbor, nothing will appease him forever... much like ARC.

Biggest thing I pay attention to is their hostility towards me, and when I see the build up of troops on my border, I prepare... Might be able to bribe them to attack someone else, but at this point it is usually too late... Those favors are helpful to bribe them to attack someone else along with a few resources. If two AI's have conflicting borders, it is easy to bribe one to attack the other. Keeping them at war with each other, keeps their attention off you.

I do not play a strong diplomacy game...

 

[Strickl3r]

However, Soyuz still seems easy so there doesn't seem to be any middle ground. You can either faceroll on Soyuz or deal with an extreme challenge on Apollo. Neither of those options are particularly fun.

sounds exactly like immortal <-> deity in Civ 4

 

[Plumfairy]

There seems to be some exaggeration going on here. Rovers + gunners aren't 4affinity levels ahead. You cannot outproduce an AI but you should be able to match his tech and defend with superior tactics.

Sorry... I was being sloppy with my terminology.

When I said "rover", I was referring to the unit class that contains rovers. Similarly, "gunner" was a reference to the unit class that contains gunners.

Basically, the AI is one affinity upgrade more advanced with rovers & gunners.