Apostolic Palace - Did We get Screwed?

[Sercee]

I'm sorry if this question is already answered; there's an enormous number of threads on the Apostolic Palace and voting, it's going to take me a while to get through...

So, last night my SO was playing Civ, and he randomized everything-map size, number of opponents, etc, so he didn't know what was beyond the shadow. He was french and ended up smack beside the egyptians. He declared war on them immediately and ended up with the continent to himself very early. When he got his gunpowder and the good ships he found another guy on the next continent. He took over the capital first, then his next two strongest cities. All of a sudden the apostolic vote came up. He only got 14 votes and the other guy (who only had one city left!) had over 100 and the game was over.

Is the the way it's supposed to work or is this a problem? Is there a rules guide somewhere that details how AP is supposed to work?

 

[ori]

Welcome to CFC
The AP Diplo Victory can be triggered once every Civ in the game has atleast one city with the AP religion. For the vote ONLY population in cities with the religion count - so it is extremely advisable to either make sure the AP religion does not spread to you or spread it to some of your cities soon so that you have a few votes.
This feature is actually ok implemented (still has some bugs) but as unfortunately always is badly documented in the game

 

[futurehermit]

ONLY population in cities with the religion count

I thought it was just the # of cities with the religion?

 

[Ankh]

: but as unfortunately always is badly documented in the game

I whould even go so far to say it's terrible documented
Read around Sercee i'm sure you can dig something up. Also I assume you mean SON with the SO

Maybe you want to edit that in to clarify your post.

 

[slobberinbear]

I think SO = "significant other." But on to the topic.

To win by diplomacy via the AP, the AP religion must be present in every active (i.e., non-eliminated) civ. Then it's just a vote.

Remember that not every civ is a "voting" member. To be a voting member, the AP religion must be your state religion. And you can having your voting member status removed by vote of the AP.

As far as the calculation of the votes, my understanding is that it's based on the population points in cities in which the state religion is present.

 

[Ankh]

Remember that not every civ is a "voting" member. To be a voting member, the AP religion must be your state religion. And you can having your voting member status removed by vote of the AP.

Actually this is incorrect. You become a VOTING member then you get the AP religion spread to you. And you become a FULL member if you are running the AP religion in question as your state religion. As a full member you also benefit from the extra production hammers the AP yields even if someone else built it.

As far as the calculation of the votes, my understanding is that it's based on the population points in cities in which the state religion is present.

This is correct.

EDIT: Just the religion has to be present in a city for votes and it's based on population, state religion dosn't matter here.

 

[Sercee]

By SO I meant Significant Other. He and I play Civ together a lot but this particular game I was only a bystander.

Thanks for the help and welcome! I'll keep digging, but that definately clears up a bit.

 

[IthacaMike]

Welcome to CFC
The AP Diplo Victory can be triggered once every Civ in the game has atleast one city with the AP religion. For the vote ONLY population in cities with the religion count - so it is extremely advisable to either make sure the AP religion does not spread to you or spread it to some of your cities soon so that you have a few votes.
This feature is actually ok implemented (still has some bugs) but as unfortunately always is badly documented in the game

Except it is difficult to keep the AP religion out. You need to have Closed Borders to keep the Missionaries out or be running Theocracy to keep non-state religions from spreading. Since the AI can use spies to change your civics just running Theocracy has some risk. In addition you need to have two religions in each of your cities reguardless of Closed Borders or Theocracy or you will be at risk to the Inspired Missionary event. Obviously you can't capture any cities that already have the religion, rather you must raze them. This probably applies to the city with the AP too.

Me, I think the Apostolic Palace is a game breaker.

IthacaMike

 

[mice]

Being forced to give back cities that you just took by force really really sucks.

For that reason alone I put a lot of resources into controlling the AP, but sometimes I want to do other things with my resources and this game mechanic really messes with me.

Still, it's not boring

 

[BronzeAge]

Being forced to give back cities that you just took by force really really sucks.

I remember finding this one out the hard way!!!

Ouch

 

[Florian]

What I don't get is why I should care if 5% of my population (especially recently conquered population, that hates my guts anyway) thinks this guy with a fancy hat should rule the world. Oh, I'm sorry! Was I conquering you? Well, I'll back off right now and kiss your ring. Whatever the heck your religion believes, I'm sure it must be true. After all, a whole 20% of the people in the world believe it.

It's just ridiculous. Look, if your buddies in the faith want you to rule the world, they probably should get their tails in gear and SEND YOU SOME REINFORCEMENTS. I'm sure this vote you just had was a really important occasion for your co-religionists--vote of confidence and all that--but I'm not sure why you expect me or anyone else in the other 80% of the world to be impressed.

This needs fixin'.

 

[levyavi]

Maybe they should add an option to remove a religion from a city (with a population and happiness loss).

 

[Elrohir]

What I don't get is why I should care if 5% of my population (especially recently conquered population, that hates my guts anyway) thinks this guy with a fancy hat should rule the world. Oh, I'm sorry! Was I conquering you? Well, I'll back off right now and kiss your ring. Whatever the heck your religion believes, I'm sure it must be true. After all, a whole 20% of the people in the world believe it.

It's just ridiculous. Look, if your buddies in the faith want you to rule the world, they probably should get their tails in gear and SEND YOU SOME REINFORCEMENTS. I'm sure this vote you just had was a really important occasion for your co-religionists--vote of confidence and all that--but I'm not sure why you expect me or anyone else in the other 80% of the world to be impressed.

This needs fixin'.

Yeah, that's pretty stupid. You should only be able to vote in these elections if this religion is your state religion - if it is, then you should be bound by the result. If it isn't, then you should get a pop up with a message saying "The Apostolic Palace has voted x. Will you comply with their decision?" And if you say yes, then you should get a positive diplomatic modifier with all members of the Apostolic Palace. But, if you say no, then you should get a negative modifier ("-1 You won't heed our wise council!") and there should be a possibility that they try to "correct" the situation by force - IE, launching a crusade to recover a stolen city, or declaring war on you until you agree to make peace with whoever you were at war with, or whatever.

Additionally, the AP diplomatic victory should only be available if ALL remaining AI meet one of two conditions: Their state religion is your state religion (That of the AP) or 51% of their population is of that religion. (The second part would probably be kind of difficult to implement, so it might have to get left out, but the first would be doable)

THAT would be fun. As it is, the AP is kind of lame.

 

[Tantor]

I`ve got two questions about The Apostolic Palace
1. What happens when the owner of the AP changes state religion? That happened to me. Mansa Musa built it when he had hinduism as state religion, afterwards he switched to Christianity. Does the AP switch as well?
2. When you control the AP as chairman, how do you choose wich resolution to put forward? So far I`ve only seen open borders.

 

[ori]

I`ve got two questions about The Apostolic Palace
1. What happens when the owner of the AP changes state religion? That happened to me. Mansa Musa built it when he had hinduism as state religion, afterwards he switched to Christianity. Does the AP switch as well?
2. When you control the AP as chairman, how do you choose wich resolution to put forward? So far I`ve only seen open borders.

1: The AP stays in the religion it was build in, but the owner does remain a full member even if he switches state religion
2: That is another not too well documented feature: the AP resolutions only come up when the criteria for them are met (i.e. quite often you cannot chose anything, sometimes you can have a multitude of options to chose from).

 

[Galatian]

Maybe they should add an option to remove a religion from a city (with a population and happiness loss).

[sarcasm]Yeah how about a concentration camp tile improvement?[/sarcasm]

 

[Percy]

Well, in the game, there's war (to gain resources, to gain cities, because of religious conflict, for fun), slavery, serfdom, vassalage, police state... I don't see why you couldn't have religious oppression in a city, as long as it's realistic enough and balanced =)

 

[Tantor]

If you choose theocracy it should be possible to remove unwanted religions, but all other civs with that religion as state religion should truly hate you and you should get a national discontent and population loss proportional to the influence of the removed religion.

Galatian: I can`t really see that religious prosecution through theocracy is less politically correct than the slavery civic. Both are equally horrible, but they remain even today as a sorry example of mankinds savagery.

Perhaps Free religion should impose a penalty to theocratic civs the same way emancipation does to those who keep running the slavery civic...

 

[Diamondeye]

I want a "Massacre population" button just as in the Total War Series - when I puch the button ordering crucifiction for three quarters of a major city, I often start laughing completely hysterical. Sorry. But it's the truth.

 

[Florian]

I think I have a good suggestion for fixing the AP victory condition. I'll explain it using Christianity as the AP religion:

1) Add together the entire populations of all civs that have Christianity as their state religion.

2) Add to that the number of Christians that live in every civ that does not have Christianity as its state religion.

3) If the resulting population number is at least 2/3 of world population (or whatever percentage is used to figure how many votes you need for a UN victory), the AP victory option is available to you.

4) The actual voting would be done the same way it is now, with one major change: if a civ has Christianity as its state religion, it gets votes for ALL its population, rather than just the Christian percentage.

There may be holes or side-effects I haven't considered yet. Maybe the rest of you can tell me what they are.