Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Oct 19, 2014.
Helps versus ranged attacks.
I loathe every single bit about this civ. UA forces to get a religion first, but doesn't help to get it at all, otherwise grabbing Mandirs becomes quite a gamble (without them UA effectively provides miniscule yields and higher spy rating on the capital). Since UA forces a rush for religion, it also forces to build Shrine first, which imposes additional requirement on starting terrain, such as coastal forest tile with +1 culture lux in the first ring.
UB is an absolute garbage though, all it does +1 Faith and a bit more distance, which is irrelevant for the amount of barbs in the newest versions. And since UA also shoehorns into Tradition, building it outside of capital will take a lot of time and won't be a rush anymore. Meanwhile Ethiopia gets +2 faith on its UU right off the bat and doesn't have to sacrifice anything.
Hell, even the very first UA proc is a huge gamble (assuming a godly start): it can land 20% on GE and lead to two more procs, GE and a Wonder, or contribute said 20% towards a great person the points of which will be available in the Classical Era.
UU as well might not exist, it for sure not gonna win the wars.
Arabia's UA doesn't have anything to do with religion...it's historic events which is GP generation, advancing eras, winning wars, building wonders and even artifact digging. It doesn't force anything into religion. I don't even think getting a religion gives a historic event. The UB is to help your tourism early on by reaching the further civs earlier so you can get a trade route tourism spread earlier. The faith is just a small bonus. The camel archers aren't the best units for sure, but they're a versatile unit which can go offensive and/or defensive (I personally think that skirmishers are still the best units around, and is very hard to deal with if the withdraw from melee attacks happen). They just can't siege cities that well, but I think they're fine as is.
Yes. The UA highly encourages you to play a Tradition Arabia, but I don't think that's a disadvantage in itself, it's kind of like that for Korea as well. It's fine that some civs work better with a certain tree (carthage and progress for another example, or huns with authority). The UA procing on the engineer isn't really that much of an issue unless you're trying to grab a ton of the early wonders...which is ill-advised if you're on immortal+.
Though in the end, I find Arabia is still one of the easier civs to win with due to the sheer output of their GP generation along with the historic events bonuses. Yes, they're narrow, but they're good at it. It's like the zulus of culture.
Wait a minute, when you recently nerfed the CS of siege units, you said that lower CS only makes them more fragile to melee attacks without making them more vulnerable to ranged attacks. I'm pretty sure you also said that in ranged vs ranged combat, the calculation only took RCS into account...
So THAT's why I was so certain I was right.
I did nothing wrong and was right all along confirmed.
First, artifact digging only becomes a historic event after the policy in Aesthetics tree.
Second, Great Prophets are great people too and thus trigger the historic events. On top of that you NEED to have Mandirs in order to benefit from UA, otherwise enjoy your assassinations (which are not affected by anti-spy buildings). Also various "when GP expended" triggers as beliefs.
I didn't know trying to grab a Halicarnassus was "a ton" of wonders.
1. That is true, but with Arabia, it is pretty much a given that their supported victory condition is best with tradition + aesthetics.
2. Yes. They are GP. But are they completely necessary? I get that you're trying to maximize everything, but it really isn't necessary for Arabia to win, they are just overwhelming in spamming GP to the point where you can end the game as soon as culture victory is allowed (I think the turn limit was like turn 230?) and with overwhelming tourism as well.
3. I see where this is going. Of course, halicarnassus is great, but I haven't grabbed that wonder in such a long time and was still able to come out victorious in every culture victory (which is how I usually win most games because I'm too lazy). Long story short, I don't think it's needed at all. It's very unlikely that you can grab early game wonders faster than AI. It isn't a gamble, and you shouldn't have a strategy revolving around getting an ancient era wonder where the AI has a huge head start before you. But this allows you to grab the later wonders easier as they take a production penalty for each wonder they have. Globe theatre, broadway, leaning tower of pisa, red fort, great wall, louvre, porcelain tower, roman forum, uffizi and hagia sophia (if you have a religion) are all wonders that Arabia wants, but you aren't going to be able to grab each and every one.
And of course, if you want a religion, you have to commit to it in higher difficulties. The AI will always have an easier time because they start with workers for improvements. It's part of the difficulty spike. Try lowering the difficulty if you want everything to go your way.
Edit: And I don't think Mandirs are needed either. Sure, they are good for protecting your great people, but honestly...mastery is what you want most. If you really need growth, asceticism is what you want.
As a ranged unit, withdrawal is benefitial. Skirmishers aren't that tough, and being the first to hit is a clear advantage to me. They aren't meant to hold positions.
Sure, that's fine but my point is that there is no point in having combat strength and withdrawal because they are mutually exclusive. If I understand RCS and CS differences correctly, getting attacked by a melee unit will take the CS into account... But that is irrelevant if the unit withdraws... And vice versa...
Sometimes withdrawal doesn't work. I can't remember if it is a 50% chance, or if sometimes the unit has nowhere to go.
I've tried to play it again, and fudge it, along with all tradition civs (outside of Venice). Secondary cities have non-existant production which takes foreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeveeeeeeeeeeer to establish basic buildings and no matter how your awesome capital will be, it won't be able out-yield several established cities. And again, UA forces into religion race while the civ only get additional +1 freaking faith from market UB, which comes into play way too late to matter. Btw UB is a trash, it gives whooping 2g 1f compared to market and +50% TR distance doesn't matter, especially if the capital spawns in an inland spot of a small continent.
There is no "bonuses" to UA, only degrees of penalty if you didn't successfully gamble every single roll, and there is a lot of gamble for Arabia.
+50% TR distance can matter a lot, but its not consistently useful. The UB needs to be strong even if you don't make use of that benefit, and currently it isn't.
Looking at Arabia side by side next to Korea (2 civs who like tradition), Arabia is pretty demonstrably pretty weak. Its UA sort of gives +20% great people at all times, this is actually pretty strong early on, but later on Korea's is certainly worth more. After medieval, if Korea is able to work 1 specialist for every historic event Arabia got, he matches in raw yields (seems easy to do). After industrial he passes, you easily beat him. Plus if you plant any scientists merchants or engineers you get an extra 2 science per turn anyways, basically matching.
I know its not a perfect comparison, Arabia does get extra tourism, its benefits hit a little earlier, and earns culture instead of pure science, all decent advantages. But even if we call the UAs even, the UB is a big problem. Many of the tradition loving civs have an extra specialist, perhaps the Bazzar should have 2 merchants? Merchants aren't that great though, maybe Arabia's grant culture or faith (I know Gazebo seems to dislike the idea of giving them a good faith generator, but it would really help distinguish them from civs like Babylon, Korea or Brazil)
I don't think Arabia is as bad as some people are making it out to be, but it could still use a hand up.
Ehm, have you missed the part where the Bazaar also gives tourism for finished trade-routes? Essentially it counts as an additional Caravansary, unless that was changed recently I guess.
I noted that it gets extra tourism, which is nice to have but super early game tourism isn't that valuable. I did just get a turn 210 Tourism win, which is pretty cool but everything about that game went well, so any civ could have won. Maybe its better to try and compare to Brazil, but I don't know the math for tourism. All I know is that I'm pretty experienced going tradition with Korea, Babylon, Brazil and India and they all feel a little stronger than Arabia
Its not just super tourism, but overall tourism. Trade Tourism seems pretty good overall, and this gives a solid bump to it. That's not enough to make a civ good, but cannot be discounted either.
Recently Arabia was buffed to getting 2 science in capital per historic event, and the Bazaar also has an additional 2 science. I think the buffs are too much.
I just won a turn 173 (standard speed) tourism win with them, on Deity. That's before I could even finish an archeology dig. Right now its a super snowball civ, early historical events like stonehenge are worth so much. Had a tech lead almost all game from the UA (I didn't even work my tradition scientist till classical). Whats more, I had a bugged download so god of festivals didn't work, meaning I effectively played without a pantheon and got a very subpar religion.
Overall I like the direction of the changes, it makes Arabia feel more distinct as a great person focused civ with an actually strong early game. The Bazaar is a tricky building, adding science to it isn't the best fit IMO, and right now they have way too much early science. Faith is an obvious suggestion, but granting +1 great merchant point would be cool. I don't think the Bazaar's tourism really contributed very much to that win.
Hmm, my tests did not see this with Arabia (crazy early win). I need a few more test cases to see if it is really too much (or if your just a really good player!)
I certainly had pretty good luck, I had a great desert start with wheat and amber. Spain was about to war me when Venice hit them so I got to slack on army, I won without ever going to war. Are you going for stonehenge in your tests? You get an extra 2 science and 1 culture from it, I think that's what drove this snowball more than anything. Culture snowballs really hard if going tradition->aesthetics. I think the event of stonehenge gave me artist points, which is a lucky roll.
I'm a decent player but I certainly don't get results like very often
I counted all my historical events in Renaissance. Had an engineer waiting for a little while, and another born naturally during. Red Fort and Porcelain needed 2 additional turns each, and I invested cash into Uffizi. All others were completed soley via great engineer.
Entering Renaissance (1)
Leaning Tower (2)
Choose an engineer (3)
Himeji Castle (4)
Free Scientist (5)
Red Fort (6)
Free Engineer (7)
Porcelain Tower (8)
Free Scientist (9)
Reach industrial (10)
Faith buy an engineer (11)
Build Globe Theatre(12)
Great Artist (13)
After 5 turn cooldown, faith buy another engineer (14)
Great Artist (16 Historical Events!)
Won the game via culture
That is enough to average 3 free great people when Arabia's UA for another 3 events, and I didn't count how many events I would have got from normal GP points. I had Tradition, Aesthetics, Mausoleum of Halicarnasus, Ceremonial Burial and To the Glory of God. Potentially you could get sainthood as well (I was too late to get it). The culture bonus yields from all those GP let me fly through rationalism, I had 4 freedom when I won. At that point I was 6 techs and 9 policies ahead of the leading AI, on Deity.
I'm not sure if Arabia itself is too strong. I think there's just too many events from chaining wonders and great people like this, its a strong strategy for lots of civs, but only Arabia will outright win this quickly
Doesn't seem too representative.
Stonehenge is very difficult to get now, and Mausoleum is even worse. Very high priority wonders for the AI. As you said yourself, you didn't have to build a military. Founded an early religion. I mean, it'd be hard not to snowball with any civ in these circumstances.
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