Arabia

[ElliotS]

You've been waiting to use that pun since the building was added to the game haven't you?

I guess you could say he's been waiting... One Thousand and One Nights!

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Doublex55, I think Camel archers are strong enough as it is, and the splash damage has been killing me in the current war, where Harun unleashed a jihad upon my peaceful Iroquois people!

 

[CrabHelmet]

Does anyone feel like Arabia is becoming a repeat offender for runaways? Obviously I'm operating on a small sample size, which is why I am consulting, but I see Arabia runaways much more than statistically I ought to.

 

[Txurce]

Does anyone feel like Arabia is becoming a repeat offender for runaways? Obviously I'm operating on a small sample size, which is why I am consulting, but I see Arabia runaways much more than statistically I ought to.

They're very capable of it, but not to a problematic degree.

 

[CrazyG]

I just noticed that Arabia now gets +2 gold per historical event, but I don't see any discussion for this change. What was the reasoning behind it? Arabia was already very strong in my opinion, currently I'd say he is perhaps the strongest civ in capable human hands

As for the AI running away, the AI doesn't take tradition. If tradition didn't exist the Arabian UA would be so much worse, in my opinion its the best UA available but if you don't have tradition its one of the worst.

 

[Txurce]

I just noticed that Arabia now gets +2 gold per historical event, but I don't see any discussion for this change. What was the reasoning behind it? Arabia was already very strong in my opinion, currently I'd say he is perhaps the strongest civ in capable human hands

As for the AI running away, the AI doesn't take tradition. If tradition didn't exist the Arabian UA would be so much worse, in my opinion its the best UA available but if you don't have tradition its one of the worst.

Interestingly, I just finished a game where Arabia took Progress, and was the runaway score leader, although not an actual runaway.

 

[CrazyG]

Interestingly, I just finished a game where Arabia took Progress, and was the runaway score leader, although not an actual runaway.

So did he win? Because if he took tradition he might have, having a great person of every type so early is really valuable, otherwise you will randomnly roll and waste a ton of musician and aritst points early on.

Also did he attempt a cultural victory? Just the numbers for my current game as Arabia, I have only 44 tourism per turn, but my bonus tourism is averaging 1,800+ per turn in the Renaissance

 

[Txurce]

So did he win? Because if he took tradition he might have, having a great person of every type so early is really valuable, otherwise you will randomnly roll and waste a ton of musician and aritst points early on.

Also did he attempt a cultural victory? Just the numbers for my current game as Arabia, I have only 44 tourism per turn, but my bonus tourism is averaging 1,800+ per turn in the Renaissance

I won a comfortable SV with Carthage. It was a very even game for all VC's. Byzantium and Austria challenged him for a DV (as did I), so there was no daylight there despite his building Westminster. He was even with me culturally most of the game, and had the biggest empire. But the game played out the way you want it to: his aggressiveness eventually led to enough pile-on wars to slow him down (45 unhappiness mid-game). I think he was taking the military route to whatever VC came first. Had he gone with Tradition, and pulled away early from my Pacifism/Fealty culture machine... and been less aggressive... he probably would have won.

 

[Gazebo]

So did he win? Because if he took tradition he might have, having a great person of every type so early is really valuable, otherwise you will randomnly roll and waste a ton of musician and aritst points early on.

Also did he attempt a cultural victory? Just the numbers for my current game as Arabia, I have only 44 tourism per turn, but my bonus tourism is averaging 1,800+ per turn in the Renaissance

The Arabia AI was doing really poorly in recent tests. If the bump is pushing them too far in the other direction we can look at it.

 

[ElliotS]

The Arabia AI was doing really poorly in recent tests. If the bump is pushing them too far in the other direction we can look at it.

Do you have information on correlation between tradition and Arabia's power? I think the fact that the AI ever doesn't play for cultural victory is a problem.

 

[Txurce]

Do you have information on correlation between tradition and Arabia's power? I think the fact that the AI ever doesn't play for cultural victory is a problem.

I think some of them do -- take Brazil, for example. However, they tend to keep their hand in at least one other VC... say a DV.

On the other hand, it's been a long time since an AI has won a CV in my games. My guess is that, unlike an SV, which takes a long time but will absolutely lead to a victory by a certain point, a CV requires the sort of (cultural) domination that VP's ever-more balanced gameplay can theoretically preclude.

 

[CrazyG]

My question for improving the Arabian AI is how often does he take tradition and what victory does he pursue. The UA has direct synergy with the capital, its a civ focused on your capital, why wouldn't you take a policy tree based on your capital. I've played Arabai with other policy trees and the historical events come so much slower than with tradition, and your musician/artist points get wasted for a long period of the game

You also get bonus tourism from both the Bazaar and your UA, which means that cultural victory looks better than for most civs. However, I don't think its wrong to pursue science or domination either, as the culture, gold and science from your UA will be helpful for those. I don't see much reason to go for diplomatic, it doesn't play into his bonuses very much.

 

[matlajs]

i have had him really often in my games and he never went tradition. to adition he is one of the most warmongering overlooking civ. probably his stance is set too aggresive, but it is not that he DoWing so often like let's say other heavy warmongers, he just doesn't care about others.

 

[CrabHelmet]

He's been going Progress in my games overwhelmingly. Rarely see him take either Tradition or Authority. Doesn't seem to stop him becoming an absolute scoreboard juggernaut. On those occasions I've noticed him, it's because he building scary science leads. He was in the same game aso Babylon and Assyria for me last time, and was comfortably ahead of both - hit the 42 tech mark when the following Babylon only reached 29. Arabia does also seem to have phenomenal culture output but the AI isn't as good at understanding cultural victories so it worries me less.

EDIT: Arabia also has 7 wonders, which I think is related. My understanding of what is happening is that Arabia gets a very early Science edge thanks to the UA, reaches the wonder it wants before other comparable player, builds the wonder largely uncontested, gets a historic event, gets a slightly larger Science edge, rinse and repeat.

 

[Txurce]

He's been going Progress in my games overwhelmingly. Rarely see him take either Tradition or Authority. Doesn't seem to stop him becoming an absolute scoreboard juggernaut. On those occasions I've noticed him, it's because he building scary science leads. He was in the same game aso Babylon and Assyria for me last time, and was comfortably ahead of both - hit the 42 tech mark when the following Babylon only reached 29. Arabia does also seem to have phenomenal culture output but the AI isn't as good at understanding cultural victories so it worries me less.

EDIT: Arabia also has 7 wonders, which I think is related. My understanding of what is happening is that Arabia gets a very early Science edge thanks to the UA, reaches the wonder it wants before other comparable player, builds the wonder largely uncontested, gets a historic event, gets a slightly larger Science edge, rinse and repeat.

That's pretty much what my last game was like, except not quite as big a tech lead.

 

[Funak]

I just noticed that Arabia now gets +2 gold per historical event, but I don't see any discussion for this change.

Wasn't that added when their bonus tourism from HEs was lowered?

 

[ElliotS]

I think some of them do -- take Brazil, for example. However, they tend to keep their hand in at least one other VC... say a DV.

On the other hand, it's been a long time since an AI has won a CV in my games. My guess is that, unlike an SV, which takes a long time but will absolutely lead to a victory by a certain point, a CV requires the sort of (cultural) domination that VP's ever-more balanced gameplay can theoretically preclude.

I was talking about Arabia in specific. They should ALWAYS go tradition imo. I don't think it's possible to balance the civ for AI and players if the AI chooses to play it incorrectly so often.

They need to be a friendly culture VC civ that encourages trading and peace. Going for other VCs is pointless imo.

However unless playing on Random VCs I don't think two or more VCs is the right style ever. You need to go all in on one VC unless you snowball so hard you're unbeatable. That doesn't mean you can't pivot later or to play poorly early, but you can't expect to do well if you try to half-ass winning.

 

[CrazyG]

Wasn't that added when their bonus tourism from HEs was lowered?

Its a really poor choice to compensate if that is the case. I think it was added for AI performance, but I really don't think this is a complex thing. Its a civ desinged to use tradition, the AI doesn't use tradition. That's why the AI doesn't win (sometimes he wins anyways because the current UA is nuts). If you buff him so he works with progress, he will be too strong with tradition.

 

[Mad Madigan]

Been playing a nice game with Arabia as my competing score leader, and he went Progress > Statecraft > Rationalism and appears to be going for a Diplomatic Vic (Emperor, Epic speed, Large map, Communitas, No events/tech trading). He's doing very well in general, and I usually see Arabia as a top scorer unless they get stomped early by a neighboring warmonger AI Civ. Arabia does appear to be very aggressive for a Civ whose UA/UB is focused on tourism and trade. I guess the AI wants to go for historic events via winning wars?

I don't want an AI that is so rigid that AI Arabia would choose Tradition every time, but it also seems weird when the AI plays against their obvious strengths. I guess it wouldn't be fun either if the AI was totally predictable though.

 

[CrabHelmet]

If people are noticing Progress Arabia running away regularly, and other people are arguing Progress Arabia is actually the substandard option anyway, then I would say there is very definitely a problem with Arabia. There's not many Civs that can be expected to do well even well played badly!