Arabia

Who said you weren't allowed to speak it? o.0
All I did was say "But Funak! *gives reasons why I believe this way*"

All you said was "Umm, no."

:(

Ehm, no, that's exactly what you did.

I said I thought the existing UA was fine, and you responded with "No"
 
Umm, no? Half of a thread in the general forum think there is some oddball stuff with Arabia's UA and how there's player/AI imbalances and given that screen shot, there is. The AI will absolutely never do a road system like that.

I question if the AI needs to utilize the UA as effectively as the player. Arabia is one of the 'runaway culture' AI's that you basically have to muster and army and kill for a culture victory. There are complaints that it's impossible to play a peaceful culture game with them around. Given this, I'd say the AI uses them just fine.

Further, every civ plays differently in the hands of a human than the AI. Carthage AI is happy to settle inland, but I'll go out of my way to avoid it, taking an objectively 'worse' position so I can have the coast bonus of their UA. Do we also need to change the Carthage UA so that the player cannot benefit from it more than the way the AI uses it?

The question then becomes, does the UA give you a huge advantage, making the game easier when playing Arabia than other civs? I would argue it does not. You have to invest a lot into setting up that road network. More worker turns is either less improvements, or buying / stealing / building more workers. You need to position your cities to make best use of the roads. A forward settle can really throw a wrench into those plans, and the AI loves to forward settle. Continuing the Carthage comparison, bonus money on settle + free Harbors + Quinqueremes lets me completely wipe out a Coastal civ neighbor (looking at you, Indonesia) in the first 60 turns of a Standard game. I get their Capital and two-three other cities. This makes the game much easier for my playstyle, but Carthage is not considered top tier or unbalanced.

In closing, I believe that attempting to ensure parity between human play and AI play on the same civilization will drive the fun out of the game. If the optimum solution is also the one you get by letting the AI auto-play, then you've created a game where you're better off watching then playing.
 
Ehm, no, that's exactly what you did.

I said I thought the existing UA was fine, and you responded with "No"

I gave a location where more opinions can be found. I gave evidence of how a player can exploit it. When I pointed out that I gave reasons while you simply said "They're fine," I was hoping you would give reasons in your next post... which you still haven't yet :p

Responses are bolded.
I question if the AI needs to utilize the UA as effectively as the player. Arabia is one of the 'runaway culture' AI's that you basically have to muster and army and kill for a culture victory. There are complaints that it's impossible to play a peaceful culture game with them around. Given this, I'd say the AI uses them just fine.

If the AI plays it "fine" and does not take advantage of an UA and yet is still powerful enough that it requires player intervention then a player who exploits that same UA is gonna have a realllllllyyyy easy time.

Further, every civ plays differently in the hands of a human than the AI. Carthage AI is happy to settle inland, but I'll go out of my way to avoid it, taking an objectively 'worse' position so I can have the coast bonus of their UA. Do we also need to change the Carthage UA so that the player cannot benefit from it more than the way the AI uses it?

I think the gold you get when you do find a city was what made it more AI friendly, as it rewards city spam, thus increasing the AI's chance of building more coastal cities. Also, doesn't Carthage have a weight on them to be more likely to build coastal cities?

The question then becomes, does the UA give you a huge advantage, making the game easier when playing Arabia than other civs? I would argue it does not. You have to invest a lot into setting up that road network. More worker turns is either less improvements, or buying / stealing / building more workers. You need to position your cities to make best use of the roads. A forward settle can really throw a wrench into those plans, and the AI loves to forward settle.

Every civ is hurt by a forward settling AI. Every civ with a UI is especially hurt by them (with the exception of Morocco). For Arabia, their UI are their roads. In truth it isn't very hard to accumulate a lot of workers. By the Renaissance each tile gives 4-5 gold, so they are very easy to buy.

Continuing the Carthage comparison, bonus money on settle + free Harbors + Quinqueremes lets me completely wipe out a Coastal civ neighbor (looking at you, Indonesia) in the first 60 turns of a Standard game. I get their Capital and two-three other cities. This makes the game much easier for my playstyle, but Carthage is not considered top tier or unbalanced.

I remember someone making a thread (link here) about Carthage and a giant bandwagon on it a month ago.

In closing, I believe that attempting to ensure parity between human play and AI play on the same civilization will drive the fun out of the game. If the optimum solution is also the one you get by letting the AI auto-play, then you've created a game where you're better off watching then playing.

One of the goals of the CBP is to improve AI performance and to balance civilizations. It is ludicrously easy to win a culture victory in Arabia in its current state. This is one of the reasons why the Dutch got a looking over after a player posted his experiences with them.
 
I guess the question is, how much more beneficial - per turn - is the 'rollercoaster crazytown's road system versus a standard road system for the Arabians? The Dutch got reworked a bit because their code wasn't performing like it should.

I'd like to see numbers, if anyone is up for it. If the difference is, for example, just 4-6 CPT per turn, per city, that's not really worth the change. Unlike the Dutch UA, which scaled oddly on huge maps, city working radius does not, thus this analysis would be valid on any map size. Keep in mind there's also a strong RNG element with regards to desert/plains/resource/hill/feature locations, which is not the same for the Dutch.

G
 
One of the goals of the CBP is to improve AI performance and to balance civilizations. It is ludicrously easy to win a culture victory in Arabia in its current state. This is one of the reasons why the Dutch got a looking over after a player posted his experiences with them.

We can improve the AI without needing to make the human and the AI play the same when playing a civ. As has been mentioned in this very thread (here), the AI does just fine with Arabia's UA. Your argument before this sole line, where you say that winning Cultural Victory is absurdly easy with Arabia, has been that the AI does not take advantage of the UA the way a human does. I'm going to do some tests now, using IGE, to see just how bad it is. As Gazebo said, if the numbers show the UA needs tweaking or redesigning, that's something to act on. "The AI doesn't play the same way I do" isn't a good reason to change things if they are providing a good challenge against the human.
 
When I pointed out that I gave reasons while you simply said "They're fine," I was hoping you would give reasons in your next post... which you still haven't yet :p

I never said "They're fine" I said "I think it is fine" there is a huge difference in there, that difference being that my statement can't possibly be wrong considering it is my opinion of the situation.

If you really need a reason, I'd say "experience", I haven't seen Arabia over-performing in any of my games, neither when I play them or when the AI does.

As for your suggestion, I really dislike it, it is moving way too far away from the initial Arabia idea of desert settling.
 
This is a comparison, on the same map with the same cities, of two road configurations at Renaissance. All road tiles also had an Improvement, as that is needed to maximize UA. Tile counts, minimum worker turns on Epic for all roads and improvements, culture from terrain, and population set to work those tiles tallied. This is on a Great Plains map, to easily maximize tiles the UA applies to.

Direct Routes:
Spoiler :
I swerved mildly to run over 'high yield' hexes, but generally built straight from capital outward. Total of 40 tiles (including city tiles) benefiting from UA. Culture from Terrain - 110 in Renaissance. Roads: 32 448 worker turns minimum on Epic (160 for Roads, plus minimum 288 more to put an Improvement on each). 9 of the workable tiles are in the Capital, which is a big chunk of population that isn't being a Specialist or working a high-production tile.

Crazy roller-coaster madness:
Spoiler :

Did a spiral through the 3rd ring around each city, linking in without crossing, ignoring what hexes I ran over to maximize sheer number. Made some very strange choices in the more mountainous terrain. Total of 104 tiles benefiting from UA. Culture from Terrain - 351 in Renaissance. 100 Roads for minimum 1400 worker turns (500 worker turns for road, 900 for other improvements). 98 population between 6 cities dedicated to maximizing the UA, or about 16 per city.

Things I've learned: Tiles with resources and Flood Plains seem to get less benefit from the UA than tiles without. This was not accounted for in route planning. Changing the direct routes to avoid resource tiles (counter-intuitive) boost Culture from Terrain to 123 and total tiles to 44. These tiles would need 532 worker turns minimum (190 roads, 342 improvemens) and use 38 population across 6 cities (6 in each, 2 extra in Capital).

I imagine the third example is the intent. By maximizing your output, you can nearly triple your rewards at nearly triple the investment in worker turns. That does seem a bit off to me. I would need to play a few full games of each approach to get a feel for how much easier this makes a Culture win. I'm also thinking that, on a more 'normal' map such as Continents or Pangaea, this sort of scenario would be somewhat rare.

As for changes, I really dislike the idea of just cutting city connections. Then the best play is to manipulate where the trade routes travel, which is even less intuitive. It also makes Arabia much more dependent than they already are on getting the right terrain and neighbor. I would much rather see something like one of the following if a change is needed:

1) Plains and Dessert tiles gain extra Food, Gold, and Culture in cities with at least 1 international land trade route (scales with Era) - You can balance on the idea that every proper tile is going to get the boost, at the cost of Arabia having completely decentralized trade routes and not being able to reliably boost more than 1 + 1 per Era cities. Trade Route granting wonders, social policies, and technology become much higher priority, as more trade routes means more cities getting the boost and maybe more routes from your primary trade hub if you've saturated your cities.

2) Same as 1, but in cities with a City Connection and not increasing by Era. More boring IMO, but easier to balance.

3) Cities with City Connections or International Land Trade Routes generate extra Food, Gold, and Culture each turn (scales with Era) - Easy to balance, removes the extra Plains and Desert flavor, potentially leaves Arabia with a ton of useless tiles if they start in a heavy Desert area. They still have Arabian Terrain Bonus for Plain and Desert flavor, and their UB offers extra land trade incentives.
 
Is your install messed up, or did Gazebo break the civ again? :D

Floodplains are not supposed to be affected by the UA at all, and I'm pretty sure the bonus from trade-routes and the bonus from roads are supposed to be mutually exclusive.
 
Is your install messed up, or did Gazebo break the civ again? :D

Floodplains are not supposed to be affected by the UA at all, and I'm pretty sure the bonus from trade-routes and the bonus from roads are supposed to be mutually exclusive.

I don't think it's my install. I use the auto-installer with EUI. Fresh installation yesterday, only other mods are IGE and Calypso's Colored Relgious Icons.

It doesn't appear to be the trade route and city connections are stacking. I really have no good idea why some tiles were getting 4 culture and others were getting 2. I can guarantee there is no trade route running along the strip at the bottom of the map south of Damascus.
 
Is your install messed up, or did Gazebo break the civ again? :D

Floodplains are not supposed to be affected by the UA at all, and I'm pretty sure the bonus from trade-routes and the bonus from roads are supposed to be mutually exclusive.

IGE may be causing a quirk, as features should not count towards it, and it should not be doubling from connections + TR.
 
I don't think it's my install. I use the auto-installer with EUI. Fresh installation yesterday, only other mods are IGE and Calypso's Colored Relgious Icons.

It doesn't appear to be the trade route and city connections are stacking. I really have no good idea why some tiles were getting 4 culture and others were getting 2. I can guarantee there is no trade route running along the strip at the bottom of the map south of Damascus.

Either way, almost all of your tiles on the second picture are doubled up. And any floodplain tile with extra yields should not have them(any yields).
By the way in case you didn't know, other civs traderoutes over your lands count as well, even if they don't connect to any of your cities.

Guess I'll have to test it, so see if the problem is local on your side or a full on bug.
 
Okay. I reloaded to the 'crazy spirals' point, no IGE. I removed the road that was connecting the capital and declared war on my neighbors to clear trade routes. It took about five turns for the culture yields to fade away from the roads. I replaced it. My thought was this would force it to recalculate the tile yields. Ended up with the same yields with zero trade routes. Started re-establishing trade routes, they had no effect on the road tile yields.

Also, this post from five days ago shows a game at roughly the same point (late Renaissance / early Industrial) with the same tile yields (some 2 culture, some 4)

Tiles with no resource or feature give 4 Food, 4 Culture, 4 Gold.
Tiles with a resource or feature (flood plains or forest, hills apparently aren't features?) give 2 Food, 2 Culture, 2 Gold.
Tile with no improvement do not get the UA bonus, unless they have a resource or feature.
These yields apply if the tile has a city connection and/or trade route passing over it. A tile with both does not double up.
 
Okay. I reloaded to the 'crazy spirals' point, no IGE. I removed the road that was connecting the capital and declared war on my neighbors to clear trade routes. It took about five turns for the culture yields to fade away from the roads. I replaced it. My thought was this would force it to recalculate the tile yields. Ended up with the same yields with zero trade routes. Started re-establishing trade routes, they had no effect on the road tile yields.

Also, this post from five days ago shows a game at roughly the same point (late Renaissance / early Industrial) with the same tile yields (some 2 culture, some 4)

Tiles with no resource or feature give 4 Food, 4 Culture, 4 Gold.
Tiles with a resource or feature (flood plains or forest, hills apparently aren't features?) give 2 Food, 2 Culture, 2 Gold.
Tile with no improvement do not get the UA bonus, unless they have a resource or feature.
These yields apply if the tile has a city connection and/or trade route passing over it. A tile with both does not double up.

Tried it out, bottom line seems to be that any improvement on a traderoute/road doubles the yields (normal plain tiles), about to expand into the floodplains, but this first part is clearly unintended.

EDIT: This is with just CPP installed, no IGN or anything else that could cause conflict.
 
Isn't the fact that a (good) human player can use abilities like this better than an AI the entire reason they get bonuses on higher difficulties in the first place? If you could theoretically remove any and all design features that a human used better than the AI, winning against inherent bonuses would be impossible.
 
Isn't the fact that a (good) human player can use abilities like this better than an AI the entire reason they get bonuses on higher difficulties in the first place? If you could theoretically remove any and all design features that a human used better than the AI, winning against inherent bonuses would be impossible.

It is on the fence. The question is if the ability is WAY TOO advantageous for the human player. Or on the more realistic front, if the UA can be balanced so the AI can keep up with other AI with it, and players don't pull ahead too hard.

I mean stuff like the Moroccan and Dutch UA favors a player as well.
 
Um...no, it would be literally impossible. If two completely stationary turrets were shooting at eachother, but one was better made in every way, the better one would survive. The thing is...removing "everything a good human player can do better than an AI" basically means "removing everything a player can do" with current AI.

The question is if the ability is WAY TOO advantageous for the human player. Or on the more realistic front, if the UA can be balanced so the AI can keep up with other AI with it, and players don't pull ahead too hard.
This is the more important question, but I don't have enough experience with Arabia to answer it.
 
This is the more important question, but I don't have enough experience with Arabia to answer it.

From my experience back when the UA was working like it should, it really was fine. Now it is kinda hard to tell, I've seen other say that AI Arabia run away with the game, but I haven't seen that so far.
 
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