Arabian UHV

[mitsho]

I was messing around today a bit with the Arabs and looking closer at their Unique history victory goals.

- build three holy shrines by 1200
- conquer or make vassals of Spain, France and Rome by 1300
- spread Islam to 40%

First condition is rather easy, set two or three of the heavy populated cities to spam priests, it should be enough. You should have Islamic and Jewish holy cities, the next you get by rushing to India (no clever idea, as all your other objectives lie in the West) or gather up the christian one which is probably somewhere around the mediterranean. You can hope it's in Jerusalem (last game) or in Roman hands. If it's somewhere else, bad luck, you must conquer something else.
Second condition seems for me to date from vanilla times, as now there are 1-4 civs between Arabian homeland and the destined areas which makes it quite difficult in the short time (620-1300). But it is probably possible.

I nevertheless want to suggest replacing FRANCE (which is historical) with CARTHAGE or/and Egypt (which is even more historical).

For the last goal you have time till the game is finished. Spam missionaries and be friendly or go on a conquering spree. The Problem here is economy. Spiral Minarett (and university of sankore) is an absolute must. Haven't tested though if it's enough. Third option would be settling the whole world and let your cities grow into the nirvana. Not having played it out I would say that one could lower the percentage a bit.

I want to hear your opinion, I am not a constant UHV player, is this UHV possible, what you think of my bold suggestion?


On another note, I want to add the Babil-problem. It never gets razed and when Arabia conquers it (happens often inmyexperience), it stays with the name. I know that Baghdad is on another tile, but I would like to suggest to scrap that and rename it automatically to Baghdad. For Realisms sake. Otherwise, make Babili more prone to razing.

On a last note, I had it now for the second time in a row that a plague is hitting everything when Arabia spawns. Fresh civs should be immune to plague, not? Didn't happen with me and when it did happen I was able to conquer huge territories without a single loss. Might consider moving it a bit (or is my non-immunity a bug, I'm not sure).

mick

 

[Rhye]

yes, they are immune. Please post the save of your spawn if this didn't happen

 

[mitsho]

Yes, my problem is that I accidentially oversaved the autosave, in any case I can't find the save, sorry. But it happened only once, and when it did happen Jerusalem and As-Sur had the plague when they switched and from there it spread to Makkah. So, the Plague did not spread to me. I hope you can do something with just that.

mick

 

[fearuin]

On a last note, I had it now for the second time in a row that a plague is hitting everything when Arabia spawns. Fresh civs should be immune to plague, not? Didn't happen with me and when it did happen I was able to conquer huge territories without a single loss. Might consider moving it a bit (or is my non-immunity a bug, I'm not sure).

mick

This happened to me, also, about a week ago. (The same time I complained heavily about plague, I still feel I was right, but maybe I just was angry) I first played as Persians. Then, the Plague cames, and I feel surrounded by constant barb attacks, and the Arabs' spawn was to happen in a few turns, so I decided to choose Arabs. I play a few turns, and several Persian cities flip to me. But one of them was plagued. Next turn, plague spreads to all my cities. The plague ceases in Persia, and the Persian elephants come... My cities are empty, they conquer all their old cities, and I sue for peace. With three cities (Mecca, Asyut, and a colony on south of the African Golden Horn), I'm last in score, and I feel doomed, so I quit.

There's no save, sorry: my arabian game lasted just for about an hour, and started another game after that.

EDIT: obviously enough, it was on the previous version. I was on Vanilla 1.86.

 

[Rhye]

okay, it's fixed.

 

[mitsho]

Rhye, nevertheless, what about my suggestion replacing France with Carthage for the UHV?

Other I played heavily now and am quite sure 40 % Islam spread is impossible, you'd have basically to conquer 80% of the population, as two religions in one city share their percentages. It's also difficult to spread the faith peacefully as you'll have bad relations as no other civ will have Islam as state religion (you normally have to wait very long to use up your initial missionary, mostly in Timbuctu).

In my current game I conquered whole of Europe (save Britain and Scandinavia, later partly islamized), the Mediterranean and the Middle East, Mali is my Muslim vassal. I stay at 35 % Islam spread. I honestly have to say I have no idea how to complete this UHV. (Conquering Spain, France and Rome is possible, I missed it by just a few turns this time).

Therefore I would suggest lowering the %-amount or (and that's my favourite) introduce a "Inquisitor"-unit who can remove a religion from a city (thus smaller amount of cities/population is enough, if your empire is monoreligious... ).

Just my 2 cents, is the Arab UHV really not interesting for anybody?

mick

 

[kairob]

I think an inquisitor unit would be a good adition

 

[Edungeon]

I never managed to play with Arabia... desert don't make my style of play...

But I belive it is very hard to make vassals in RFC... maybe just conquer their territory?

 

[Rhye]

Rhye, nevertheless, what about my suggestion replacing France with Carthage for the UHV?

Other I played heavily now and am quite sure 40 % Islam spread is impossible, you'd have basically to conquer 80% of the population, as two religions in one city share their percentages. It's also difficult to spread the faith peacefully as you'll have bad relations as no other civ will have Islam as state religion (you normally have to wait very long to use up your initial missionary, mostly in Timbuctu).

the change would be okay - but we could go further: egypt, carthage and spain.
If it isn't too easy. What do you think?

As for the 40%, is 35% the top that everyone of you has reached?
I'd really like to add that inquisitor unit or something like that, if I had the time, but I don't. So I must rely on tuning the conditions.

 

[kairob]

I like carthage, egypt and spain. I think spain would be challanging as I always find it hard to do invasions over the sea, but that might be just a personal thing

 

[mitsho]

I like Egypt, Spain and Carthage too. Chances are high you would have to conquer another European city in any case too (Christian holy city). Besides if conquering whole North Africa, you'd be exposed to Barbarians, wouldn't you?

35% sounds reasonable, I'm gonna try it nevertheless. Also if you haven't already looked at it, there are many inquisitors-mod out there (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187623). Just a suggestion, I know you are hard pressed and schisms (or whatever is still on your list) come first in any case...

mitsho

 

[kairob]

I thought that the barbs stopped by then anyways? and why do ya need the christian holy city?

Edit: Does the target area for the Arabian AI include Turkey? if not this could be a good idea as historically they did try to get this area and in terms of gameplay it would encourage the Turks to adopt Islam...

 

[mitsho]

You have to build three holy shrines by 1200 Ad. Unless you go on a mad race for Delhi which just lies in the opposite direction of where you want to go, you have to conquer it. And as I think Europe has more "population capacity", it also makes sense for the last UHV condition to go that way.

mick

 

[SadoMacho]

I have spread Islam to 35% too, Europe was completly Muslim, India too and some Chinese cities, but I could get it up to 40%.

The vassal thing, I would replace Rome with Carthage. France had an invasion (the Frankian Empire), and the Arabs were stopped in Poittiers. In Italy, the Islands were taken by the Arabs, but except from some plundering, there was no invasion there (for as far as I know).

 

[mitsho]

There were raids on Rome, but that's not the point. The point is if the UHV is possible to do or not. It's extremely hard to get out 3 prophets by 1200, and then set sails for France, Italy and Spain. That's why I think Spain is ok, Carthage and Egypt are better than Rome and France, especially when you will be conquering Athens, Rome or Constantinople anyways (Holy Christian City).

Afaik, the possibility of the time goals depends a lot on the starting location. But perhaps I'm just not a good enough player.

As for the 40% you reached. Did you do it by conquest or by peaceful missionary work? Nevertheless, as you said, you had to convert a ridiculous amount of land, not?

mick

 

[Rhye]

another proposal to keep coherence with vanilla: control (just control, no vassals) North Africa (4 or 5 cities in the whole region), Spain and Sicily

 

[fearuin]

As Vanilla player, I support Rhye's last idea.

The other idea can be go the opposite way and diverge, if people choose the vassal target. In that case, for Vanilla, I'll propose this:

As long as in Vanilla there's no Turk civ, and the Ottoman empire was the most important muslim empire, I'll defend also the idea of conquering North Africa, Egypt, Greece and Spain, but in 1500 AD (I'm having in mind the conquest of Constantinople by 1453, but it should be tested, I guess). If you're thinking on Vienna, that area it's usually Greek, and, on the other hand you'll have to conquer the Christian holy city, anyway, so you'll have to race to France or Rome anyway, which makes sense.

However, any of the two proposals seem good for me.

 

[mitsho]

After having done some more playtesting I mut state the following:

- Your ability on building 3 shrines depends at a very big rate on the amount of GPP you inherit in Jerusalem, As-Sur or Ur or alternatively on the amount of Religious wonder around in the Middle East. There are just too few turns between 600 and 1200 to produce three GPP on your own. The Leaning Tower does not help you as you have no time to build it (if you can even get literature from the Romans).

- Your ability to conquer the land is given, either by spamming Camel Archers or by teching with the help of the 4 shrines (Islam, Judaism, Christian, Spiral Minarett) to musketeers and Engineering. Nevertheless, the time is short.

I thus want to propose:

- Control 3 Holy shrines by 1300 AD - Ten more turns are not much, but the UHV shouldn't get too easy too, shouldn't it?
- Control Egypt, North Africa and Spain by 1300 AD - No Sicily please as this most probably includes a raid on Rome/Pompeji
- Spread Islam to 35 % - I nevertheless think 35 % is a high percentage..



my last two cents (Ithink)

mick

 

[fearuin]

I agree with mitsho's proposal. The dates seem hard but not impossible, and coincide with the golden period of the Arabian civ (with the little exception of Spain, but UHVs are suppoused to improve what the civs historically did -with the exception of Rome, but this a different story-).

 

[SkippyT]

Yes, I agree with you mitsho.
40% is impossible.
30% would even be hard!

- Control Egypt, North Africa and Spain by 1300 AD - No Sicily please as this most probably includes a raid on Rome/Pompeji

Hmmm..Isn't Egypt a part of North-Africa? Anyway - I'd say:
Control or have Egypt, Carthage and Spain your vassals by 1300 AD.