Arabia's portrayal in Civ VII

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Candid yet likely unpopular: Who would support a Spain-Portugal-Andalusia rotation for Iberia?

I'd support Andalusia in a rotation among other various Northern African civs such as Morocco, Berbers etc.

 

[awesome]

Candid yet likely unpopular: Who would support a Spain-Portugal-Andalusia rotation for Iberia?

Nah, they should have Morocco/Moors as the closest thing to Al-Andalus.
I don’t think they’ll ever not have Spain in the game, either.

 

[Evie]

I mean, technically they've *already* not spain in the game Spain - it was not one of the originsl sixteen (plus one) civs from Civ 1.

Also technically, Civ 3 went a year and a day without Spain (added only in Play the World) and Civ 5 nearly two months (added in the Inca and Spain DLC).

So, you know, "don't think they'll ever not have spain in the game"...probably overstating your case a bit,

 

[BuchiTaton]

I'd support Andalusia in a rotation among other various Northern African civs such as Morocco, Berbers etc.

Berbers is the ideal option:
- Speak their own different language instead of be Arabs 2.0
- Dihya is a perfect option to cover an underrepresented time range and their pre-islamic culture.
- Still have two powerfull islamic dynasties who controled part of Iberia.
- For Real World Map scenarios a third civ in Iberia is counterproductive.

I dont see what to gain from Morocco or Andalusia when both turn to be less unique than Berbers.

 

[awesome]

I mean, technically they've *already* not spain in the game Spain - it was not one of the originsl sixteen (plus one) civs from Civ 1.

Also technically, Civ 3 went a year and a day without Spain (added only in Play the World) and Civ 5 nearly two months (added in the Inca and Spain DLC).

So, you know, "don't think they'll ever not have spain in the game"...probably overstating your case a bit,

Well, yeah, but you can say that about a lot of current series staples.

 

[FishFishFish]

- Still have two powerfull islamic dynasties who controled part of Iberia.

I dont see what to gain from Morocco or Andalusia when both turn to be less unique than Berbers.

I think the reason why people advocate for Al-Andalusia over other civs is because they want something representing the period of time where religious freedom for all monotheists was codified into law and when Cordoba grew almost as large as Constantinople. The Al-Andalus that is thought of in these terms (the "Ornament of the World") lasted only a brief period relative to the seven centuries of Islam in Spain. That period is (roughly) from the beginning of Umayyad rule in 756 to the dissolution of the Caliphate of Cordoba in 1009.

After that period, the petty-kingdoms (taifas) that dotted Spain were relatively weaker, so the "golden age" of strength and unity was over. And then after the invasion of the conservative Almoravids in 1086, the scientific, philosophical and tolerant Andalusians were seen as heretical and curbed.

Don't get me wrong though, I would welcome the Berbers or Morocco but I do think that Al-Andalusia would make for a more interesting basis for a civ.

 

[Henri Christophe]

- Speak their own different language instead of be Arabs 2.0

Al Andalus also speaks it's own language, it's a kind of iberic latin similar of nowadays spanish.

 

[FishFishFish]

Al Andalus also speaks it's own language.

Sure, but Mozarabic was a lower class tongue. The Muslims tolerated it but Arabic was always the cultured language. Thus any Al-Andalusian leader should just speak Arabic (also cuz Mozarabic is extinct and it is impossible to reconstruct it).

 

[BuchiTaton]

I think the reason why people advocate for Al-Andalusia over other civs is because they want something representing the period of time where religious freedom for all monotheists was codified into law and when Cordoba grew almost as large as Constantinople.

Religious freedom but Dhimmies still were highly taxed second class citizens. I think tha if we want to see a pluri-religious civ is better to look for some classical "pagans".

Al Andalus also speaks it's own language, it's a kind of iberic latin similar of nowadays spanish.

Mozarabic was part of the Ibero-Romance languages like Portuguese and Spanish, so one more to the list of Indoeuropean languages the best represented family. Meanwhile Berber languages diverged from others Afroasiatic languages even earlier than most (if not all) Indoeuropean from each other.

 

[Patine]

In Civilization VII I would like to see Arabia split up into multiple civilizations, such as the following:

1. A civilization that represents the first 3 caliphates (Rashidun, Umayyad, Abbasid). Preferably a Umayyad caliph leading this time around since we have never gotten one before.
   
   
2. A Sunni based civilization located in the Maghreb and Iberia.
   
   
3. An Omani civilization with a strong maritime focus.
   
   
4. The Fatimid Caliphate (I feel like the Fatimids are distinct enough from the previous caliphates to warrant being their own civilization).

This also has the added benefit of representing three sects of Islam.

I'm confused here. I only see three Sunni and one Obadhi civ. Where is a Shia civ?

 

[FishFishFish]

The Fatimids were Shia.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Berbers is the ideal option:
- Speak their own different language instead of be Arabs 2.0
- Dihya is a perfect option to cover an underrepresented time range and their pre-islamic culture.
- Still have two powerfull islamic dynasties who controled part of Iberia.
- For Real World Map scenarios a third civ in Iberia is counterproductive.

I dont see what to gain from Morocco or Andalusia when both turn to be less unique than Berbers.

I agree, however I don't see the Berbers as recurring every game. At least Morocco in Civ 5 was partly Berber, with their UU, so if it's a rotation in future games I wouldn't mind.
But I think we all agree that North Africa/the Maghreb needs a civ in every edition.

 

[Henri Christophe]

(also cuz Mozarabic is extinct and it is impossible to reconstruct it).

it is not extinct and is possible to reconstruct. Just watch this video there is a dialogue in Mozarabic.

 

[FishFishFish]

That is not a reconstruction, but rather an approximation using modern Spanish and by comparing the differences between them. Keep in mind that Mozarabic was not a single language, but a continuum of Romance dialects spoken across Al-Andalus.

Due to it being a vernacular continuum of languages for most of it existence: it would have been completely unknown if it weren’t for a few fragments of mozarabic inserted in longer poems known as moaxajas. Having been kept in written form using Arabic script also presents the singular problem that we don’t really know which vowels were actually used by its speakers.

it is not extinct

Also the description of the video you posted says Mozarabic is extinct.

 

[Patine]

The Fatimids were Shia.

Duh! My mistake. I had been thinking of Iran, Southeast Iraq, Eastern Province of Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and Azerbaijan - the modern Shia homelands - and had almost forgotten how much the old Shia travelled (and were forced to travel) in their power bases in older times.

 

[Krajzen]

I'd love to eventually see separate "Arabia" Arabia, Islamic Persia for once, and in addition something such as Islamic Egypt however you deal with the name problem, or Maghreb Islamic civ, or Moorish Spanish civ, or whatever way to onclude Islamic Iraq or Syria (Umayyads, Abbasids?), or Islamic Yemen, or ancient pagan Arabic civs etc.

 

[Phrozen]

I would suggest first splitting off Oman as they were more of a colonial maritime trade empire. Oman also split off from the Caliphate relatively early on and is an Ibadhi state though it has a long tradition of religious tolerance with Ibadhi's being a religious minority outside Oman. Ibadhi Islam is a interesting mix of the radical and conservative, though probably hard to emulate in game.

 

[Evie]

My only objection to Oman is that it might edge the Swahili out of the game again due to both playing into the maritime trade empire angle, and they're still my #1 African most wanted.