Arafat an enemy - a cease fire suggestion that came too late

[The Art of War]

it shows some civility when you don't say, "DMB is stupid!" like some. Thanks for that.

Anyway, I do think that Arafat is wrong and justice should be brought to him. Its just all the killing that has happened sickens me. . .

 

[Greadius]

Actually, that song is about Dave's native South Africa...

Read any accounts of the 2000 peace summit at Camp David... all participants said the exact same thing: Arafat got the best offer he is going to get and walked away from it.

Arafat doesn't understand peace. He wouldn't know what to do with it if it was handed to him on a silver platter.

And the irony about most of the 'Palestinian' refugees is that they've never even been to Palestine...
And there has never been a Palestinian state...

 

[knowltok2]

Originally posted by The Art of War
it shows some civility when you don't say, "DMB is stupid!" like some. Thanks for that.

Anyway, I do think that Arafat is wrong and justice should be brought to him. Its just all the killing that has happened sickens me. . .

Civility is one of the things I pride myself on. It ranks right up there with my humility. Thanks

It is good that the killing sickens you. It should sicken all of us, but that doesn't mean that armed conflict is never an answer to any situation. The Israelis are faced with an enemy that does not want peace, won't negotiate, and is actively attacking them. This enemy wants their complete destruction. Surrender is not an option, talking doesn't work, and forced deportation to Antarctica won't be tolerated (just had to throw that one in there ). There isn't much left for the Israelis except to try and pound their enemy hard enough that he quits.

Note that I didn't define the 'enemy' so don't think that I necessarily mean all Palastinians.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Dont try and make yourself look intelligent by hiding behind songs and poems.
Not to say that they in no way relate to the situation.

Don't bring this thread off topic, I want the arguement Israel VS. Palestine to be at topic long enough

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by The Art of War
What do you call the conquest of Canaan in the Bible, were the people there not pushed out by the Jewish?

From your prespective, the song has nothing to do with what we are talking about. I used it to merely get you thinking, not to incite some form of anger. Sorry. I meant no harm.

They weren't kicked out. The bible clearly says that jews aren't allowed to discriminate people with a different nationality or religion because they were discriminated in Egypt.
But even if they were, I really can't see what the hell it has to do with today... You're not racist (hopefuly) and so I can't see why you're taking an opinion even the catholic church found racist. Jews today are in no way responsible to crimes commited by other jews in the past.

 

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by The Art of War
What do you call the conquest of Canaan in the Bible, were the people there not pushed out by the Jewish?

Actually, IIRC most of them pretty much became Jews after a while.

And it wouldn't be fair to blaim only Jews for conquering the land, since it was standard behaviour until the later half of the 20 century. You conquered what you wanted.

G-man, I think you better chill a bit. If you don't disagree with sometihng try as much as you can to be civil about it.

Attacking people doesn't help. At least not people who aren't extremists.

 

[The Art of War]

BTW, I'm not racist.

 

[RedWolf]

There was an interesting story on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago about the Middle East.

They interviewed I think 4 children from the area about 4 years or so ago.

They were:

2 Israeili brothers
1 Israeli Boy

1 Palestinian Girl
(there may have been another Palistinian as well but I just can't remember)

Anyway they were all very politically knowledgable but their views were somewhat moderate. The two Israeili brothers openly admitted that they had no quarrel with the majority of palestinians and that they even understood WHY Palestinians would fight against the occupation of their homelands. When asked they expressed an interest in meeting a Palestinian Child their own age.

The other Israeli boy was more of a hardliner - he openly disliked Palestinians and wanted no part in meeting them.

The Pelestinian girl although she felt very strongly about the Israeili occupation she didn't really seem to hate Israelis at all.

60 minutes came back.. 4 years later to talk to these same children and the result was predictable but saddening.

These children now HATED. The two brothers no longer had any sympathy for the palestinians or their cause. The other Israeli boy believed Palestinians to be subhuman barbaric animals (the blatant racism was shocking)

The Palestinian girl had lost a close friend in the uprising - gunned down by Israeli troops. SHE now hated the Jews as well and even talked about becoming a suicide bomber.

It was sad to see that these children who had started off so moderate had been hardened by their experiences and learned to hate so deeply. It showed strikingly clear that their will be no peace in the middle east as long as people continue to hate one another. These revenge attacks (from BOTH sides) will never solve anything except further inflame the issue and cause hate to prosper. The suicide bombing just cause the Israeli people to take a harder and harder stance toward the issue because they are SICK of being attacked on their streets. And everytime Israel retaliates they end up killing innocent civilians (it may be accidental but THAT doesn't make the dead's friends and family LIKE it any better). THIS just causes more Palestinians to hate the Jewish people and the Israeli occupation which leads to more extremist views and actions and the cycle repeats itself.

Maybe we should toss both Arafat AND Sharon out of office and allow children to do the negotiating... Children that hadn't already been taught to hate by their parents, media and political leaders. Maybe THEN we would have peace.

 

[Greadius]

Originally posted by RedWolf
Maybe we should toss both Arafat AND Sharon out of office and allow children to do the negotiating... Children that hadn't already been taught to hate by their parents, media and political leaders. Maybe THEN we would have peace.

That's just silly... its like trying to find the root cause of hate and if we can just squash that then everyone will hold hands and love one another.

Arafat has had decades to formulate anything remotely appearing like peace or stability and has failed. Regardless of if he has enough power or not, he has failed to deliver peace as promised, he has failed to deliver terrorists as promised, and he has failed to deliver Palestinians a basic semblence of normal life as promised.
Anyway you cut it, Arafat is a failure. Since he won't allow the Palestinians to remove him peacefully, he doesn't have to answer to his failures. Its time to try something new. Israel has gone through a half-a-dozen leaders with different styles trying to make it work, perhaps it is time to admit that the Israeli leader isn't the problem?

 

[G-Man]

RedWolf - There's a big difference between an action that's ment to retaliate and an action that's ment to stop. Israel stopped retaliating a long time ago. Every action the IDF has been doing the past few months was ment to stop terrorism, either directly or by pressuring Arafat. The fact is that there won't be a cease fire untill Arafat will stop terrorists. Israel has already made 5 one sided cease fires. The palestinians refused. When Zinni came Arafat insisted on his on briliant plan - Israel will immedietly cease fire and will follow the tennet and mitchell plans. Only after that he'll start arresting terrorists. It's not a peace plan, it's a war plan. The fact is that kids can't run a peace process. please get real.
Also, blaming both sides and just saying that everyone are to blame won't help. If you wish to solve a problem you need to study it. Why should Sharon be removed? He has done for peace more then most people would've done. I don't care if the Palestinians like him or not, he's Israel's prime ministers and unless you'll give me a good reason to remove him he won't be removed. Arafat gave Israel more then a 100 reasons to remove him just this month.

 

[sysyphus]

Originally posted by Greadius
That's just silly... its like trying to find the root cause of hate and if we can just squash that then everyone will hold hands and love one another.

You make a good point, but pulling these two clowns out of the mix would still be progress.

 

[G-Man]

I really don't see what people have gainst Sharon. If you were him, what would you do?

Update about the situation: There was a suicide bomber in a Tel Aviv cafe. So far only the suicider is dead but one of the wounded is in critical condition. Dozens of people injured. The cafe was a popular teenagers hangout.

 

[RedWolf]

Originally posted by Greadius
That's just silly... its like trying to find the root cause of hate and if we can just squash that then everyone will hold hands and love one another.

I can't believe that in less than 12 hours I've already been told twice that it's "silly". Of course it's silly and it's never going to happen. Do people here think I'm 12 years old?

I was making a point and not SERIOUSLY advocating letting 10 year olds run the peace process.

 

[RedWolf]

When talking about the middle east whenever I hear someone say "it's all THEIR fault" they tend to lose all credibility in my eyes.

Obviously that person is either too close to the situation to look at it objectively or they just have an underlying bias.

There's enough blame in the Middle East to go around.

 

[G-Man]

Alright. I'm not blaming Arafat. I'm just mentioning that he ordered to start the intifada after a major progress in the peace process happened and that he constantly refused to order it's ending and even sent people of his own orgenization to attack Israelis. It's a fact.

PS. the fatah took responsibility for the suicide bombing.

Edit: Update. So far 29 wounded, 6 still in a life risking situation, 1 in critical condition. Oh, and I want you to see what I mean when I say pressuring Arafat. Skip to the end.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/03/29/arafat.cnna/

"You have to be accurate when you are speaking with General Yasser Arafat. Be quiet!"

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by Greadius
Arafat has had decades to formulate anything remotely appearing like peace or stability and has failed.

Not true. He was a terrorist until about 10 years ago.

Isn't it embarassing that this man won the nobel peace prize in 1994? The same man who has continued to support suicide bombers aimed at children. I wouldn't see the issue as completely one sided as I do if the Palestinians would target the Israeli military instead of innocent civilians...

 

[sysyphus]

Originally posted by NY Hoya

I wouldn't see the issue as completely one sided as I do if the Palestinians would target the Israeli military instead of innocent civilians...

The Israeli military has been known to take it cracks at Palestinean civilians with no eveidence of having connection to terrorism.

Interestingly enough, I passed by a demonstration here in Toronto today. A large number of Palestineans marched through the city demonstrating against Israeli occupation. There were a significant number of Jewish people marching along with them, one told me they were there because they felt that the occupation was killing everyone.

Mind you, there are others in Toronto's Jewish community who are feeling a different sentiment. They're staying quiet now for Passover, but apparently they plan on a demonstration of their own early next week.

Anything similar going on in other cities not directly in the conflict?

 

[G-Man]

Targeting soldiers won't be terrorism but it will still be pretty stupid considering the fact they'll get a country only when they'll stop shooting...


"The Israeli military has been known to take it cracks at Palestinean civilians with no eveidence of having connection to terrorism. "

There's a big difference between has been know and has.

Update: 32 injured. 1 in critical condition. 4 in life threatning situation.
A shock grenade exploded outside a discotech near the dolphinarium in Tel Aviv. The police are still looking who did it.

Experts predict 1 G-Man is about to go to sleep.

 

[NY Hoya]

Originally posted by G-Man
Targeting soldiers won't be terrorism but it will still be pretty stupid considering the fact they'll get a country only when they'll stop shooting...

I agree whole-heartedly. But I don't think that the PLO and other Arab extremists really want peace. At least not a peace that includes a Jewish state in the region. The extremist leaders of the Arab-Muslim society don't want peace with Israel because the current struggle is one of the few things that keep them in power. If some sort of peace plan that is suitable to the Arab states is ever conceived, I guarantee you the focus will shift toward the "corrupt" west and America.

I'm starting to think the only way to deal with the Middle East is through replacing the current heads of state with fairly elected leaders. Unfortunately, the US is too caught up with the importance of Arab oil to intervene, and the Europeans see a much more balanced conflict than I. Unfortunately, Israel is left to fight the war by herself.

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by sysyphus
Interestingly enough, I passed by a demonstration here in Toronto today. A large number of Palestineans marched through the city demonstrating against Israeli occupation. There were a significant number of Jewish people marching along with them, one told me they were there because they felt that the occupation was killing everyone.

Mind you, there are others in Toronto's Jewish community who are feeling a different sentiment. They're staying quiet now for Passover, but apparently they plan on a demonstration of their own early next week.

Anything similar going on in other cities not directly in the conflict?

Yes, the Palestinian community in Melbourne are going to be having a protest march here in Melbourne in the next day or two.

Sigh! Prior to this post I have resisted the temptation to get sucked into this discussion because I feel there is very little I can usefully contribute - other than an opinion.

For what it is worth I have sympathy for both Palestinians and Israelis that are suffering injury and death.

I think Arafat will go down in history as someone who had the opportunity to achieve immense good for his people by accepting the peace proposal of Ehud Barak - his refusal, for whatever reasons, was and is a tragedy and he should be judged accordingly.

One of the things that disturbs me about Sharons leadership is that he does not seem to have a strategy for resolving this conflict, because like it or not this is a political problem that will have to have a political solution.

Ehud Barak was a brave man, he was prepared to go the extra distance to try and achieve peace - it's a shame the man sitting opposite him at the negotiating table was not of a similar calibre.

As I said - just an opinion.