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Arcane/Summoning Merge?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by orgonebox, Dec 26, 2008.

  1. orgonebox

    orgonebox Squidtastic

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    Potato Overdose came to this logical and brilliant solution to the arcane/summoner who-has-the-best-mage argument:

    What do peeps think? It frees up an attribute slot for the summoning leaders and makes the current arcane leaders more favorable.

    Let the battle begin!
     
  2. phoulishwan

    phoulishwan Warlord

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    Mmmm, Faeryl will become fiercesome indeed with this proposed change, I like it a lot...a 2 turn Alazkan, with 3 in action every turn sounds like ummmmm, extremely over powered to an already razor thin line that he currently walks.
     
  3. Micky Onimusha

    Micky Onimusha Prince

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    I like this idea actually. It makes Keelyn less of a one-trick-pony and as you mentioned, bumps the other Arcane Civs onto a similar level as the Sheaim when it comes to summoning.

    As phoulishwan pointed out, something would need to be done about Alazakan to keep him in check.

    Also, we'd need to give Tebryn Arbandi another trait.
     
  4. Psycho_Ivan

    Psycho_Ivan Warlord

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    Seems like too simple of a solution that also makes some problems once all is said and done and doesn't do all that much to solve a problem.
     
  5. Dux_

    Dux_ Warlord

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    Summoning is quite powerful, & it would make keelyn & sheaim less special. Plus, it still won't solve issues like the sub par early eco of the amurites or the production problem late game of kuriotates.
     
  6. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    FYI, Kuriotates are really Titans in .40 Maybe less so on maps larger than standard size, but... yeah Expansive trait, boosted boons, new hero, shortened military tech line... they got the ups now.

    Not sure why they were included here anyway since they aren't arcane.

    The real problem with arcane/summoner traited civs, is they require you to get fairly far into the game before getting any benefit at all.

    I'd really rather see something like Arcane civs being able to build a 2 strength neophyte unit that is an arcane unit (Upgrades into an adept) that starts with a random magic promotion of a type the owner controls. Give them something cool to do from turn 1 instead of need KotE.
     
  7. Psychic_Llamas

    Psychic_Llamas Wizard in the Making

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    i think arcane should get a small (10-15%) research boost.
     
  8. Micky Onimusha

    Micky Onimusha Prince

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    In my opinion, it'd make Keelyn and the Sheaim less of a "one-trick-pony" (they have more than one trick I know, but summoning abuse is one of their biggest tricks). I think maybe what needs to be done with the Sheaim (and Amurites) is to give them a bit more of a magical 'edge' than other Civs, beyond just the potency boost (and the new possibility of 2 turn summons). This Arcane-Summoning boost would benefit Thessa and Faeryl a lot (particularly Thessa, who would get a little niche within her civ), but I think it'd be important to make a big distinction between the Elves' magical capabilities and those of the "true" magical civs.

    Not sure why all of the Adaptive Civs are included, although I suppose all of the Adaptive leaders could (if they wanted) play a game as though they were Arcane masters.
     
  9. orgonebox

    orgonebox Squidtastic

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    I think the only issue that would arise from the summoner/arcane merge is, as mentioned, the alazkan issue. Maybe illusions would lose the automatic heal - or maybe faeryl could have armies of assassins, mages, and alazkan, and nothing else.

    Overall the addition of the arcane attributes to the current summoner civs would only benefit them, while giving the arcane civs a little something extra. Mages that could call up empowered summons would benefit more with them surviving a combat or two. The merger also fits into the current atmosphere of streamlining the game.

    I have to disagree with the idea that the arcane civs are weak, though - the fact of the matter is simply that every civ benefits from establishing a solid military base before pursuing their respective specialist routes. If anything, the arcane civs should get a research boost for the sorcery path only. The sheaim and the balseraphs have an excellent military base with the pyre zombies and freaks, and if anything, the arcane route can almost become an afterthought. Likewise, Valledia does better if she techs to code of laws and military strategy before pursuing the arcane path. Dain can survive by turtling and pursuing science or going the military route. Thessa needs to do the elf-thing, but all the elves need mages in order to deal with serious city defenses.
     
  10. PotatoOverdose

    PotatoOverdose Prince

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    Adaptive leaders are included because adaptive can pick arcane, and there was another putatively underpowered civ that could in theory benefit from such a merge, the Malakim. There have been any number of threads on buffing the malakim. My suggestion would allow them to make better use of their unique sand lions, and enhance a military advantage given by deserts, the afore mentioned sand lions. I also proposed this idea before the addition of a second hero to the Kuriotates and before the mounted tech rebalance. However, I honestly don't think that these made the Kuriotates up to par with other top tier civs seeing as they still suffer from a huge disadvantage on large and huge maps due to map sizes increasing at a much, much greater rate than their available cities. But I have not tested this, so my opinions on this subject may be wrong.

    I would also disagree with the argument that this would make the Sheaim and Balseraphs less special, the Balseraphs would get 4 summons at a time per caster instead of the ungodly 9 they get now, but this would be greater then the 2 every other arcane civ would get. The sheaim would still have their eater of dreams that can, in the late game, easily summon ridiculous amounts of units during war time. And both of the above civs would keep all of their other powerful unique features (loki, arena, planar gates, pyre zombies, etc.)

    As for the svartalfar, their mages, archmages, and liches are the only arcane units (world units aside) whose summons can't kill anything . This is mildly ironic considering they come from an arcane civ which is supposed to be good at magic relative to other civs. IMO, the extra summons would simply mitigate a gross disadvantage that they suffer in the arcane department.

    That's the reasoning for my idea, I thought it could fix many of the balance issues in the game with one stroke.
     
  11. odalrick

    odalrick Emperor

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    Why not just give arcane summons +1 duration, and keep the summoner trait. Tebryns summons would have a monstrous 4 turn duration.

    And Illusions not killing is an overall a huge advantage, think of all that experience that goes to useful units rather than summons. The only thing that bothers me is illusory fireballs...

    It would not affect Alkazan, though, since the Black mirror explicitly sets the units duration to 1.
     
  12. ushram

    ushram Balseraph puppet

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    There is no need for the trait merge imo, its not the trait that needs tweeking its that Balseraphs that need the tweek.
     
  13. Blakmane

    Blakmane Prince

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    I really think this sounds like a brilliant idea. While I don't think it'd do a huge amount to reduce the power of keelyn in particular, it would make two relatively bland traits much more exciting, give a boost to thessa/amurites and remove the amount of bloat within the game (which is a design focus I do believe).

    Extra illusions for faeryl are less of a problem now that they are incapable of killing. If alzakan is a problem it would be simple enough to code the black mirror slightly differently.
     
  14. Fafnir13

    Fafnir13 King

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    There would certainly need to be some tweaking for the idea to work, but I am definitely all for it. Part of that tweaking should involve some specific civs getting unique bonuses. What those are I couldn't say. An extra turn for Keelyn's sounds about right. Just fix those darned puppets. those things ought to be hard-capped to the number of mages you have...
     
  15. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

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    I think giving Arcane +1 Summon duration, as mentioned, and keeping Summoner trait is the best solution here. As mentioned elsewere, giving all civs the same thing is reducing variaety.
     
  16. mahazel

    mahazel Warlord

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    Ech, I want to see again a tech tree for summoners (like it was in ffh Fire), when arcane and summon magics were separated.
     
  17. ushram

    ushram Balseraph puppet

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    exactly what i said in a previous thread :)
     
  18. Thunder_Gr

    Thunder_Gr Emperor

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    I'd like that, too. But I do not hold any hope.
     
  19. Breez

    Breez King

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    I sort of agree AND disagree. I would not combine them.

    I think adding +1 summons to Arcane would be good, but I would reduce Summon duration to +2 instead of +3.

    There by, keeping the differences while at the same time reining in the summoning abuse as well as increasing the Arcane Leaders.
     
  20. Grey Fox

    Grey Fox Master of Points

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    I don't like it. Arcane and Summoning should be separated to keep the somewhat different style of magic leaders.

    And I don't see why Balseraphs would be weaker by this, they would be stronger compared to many others. (If you merge arcane and summoning, keelyn would gain a trait and so would perpentach)

    I kinda dislike that so many of the 3rd tier spells are summons tho, when the merge happened it was like they removed the Archmage and not the summoner.
     

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