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Archers - City conquerors

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Strategy & Tips' started by DirtyFinger, Apr 4, 2009.

  1. DirtyFinger

    DirtyFinger Prince

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    All archery units have the problem that they are useless for attacking cities. They are great for holding them, but it's sooo bothersome to create a healthy unit mix.

    However, since archers upgrade from warriors, they can get the City Raiders promotion. But once they change classes, they can't get City Raiders II and III, so that means the only way to get City Raiders III for archers is to have level 4 warriors get the promotion and then switch to archer. Btw. City Raiders III means +90% attack against cities.

    Fighting gets XP, but since we are lazy we want them strong out of the box, which means we need free 10 XP (or 8 XP for charismatic leaders).

    The first 6 XP are (relatively) easy: Apprenticeship, Conquest and Theocracy civics.
    Take charismatic leader for 2 more XP (saved).
    Build command posts for 2 XP.

    Command posts are gained by sacrificing a great commander ... or by having an organized leader build them.

    The Bannor leader Sabathiel conveniently is Charismatic and Organized, which is exactly what the doctor ordered. As an extra perk, they also get the Crusade civic, which makes the warmonger complete.
    Another "advantage" of the Bannor is their total lack of unique units altogether, which helps to not let us feel like we are missing something. :)

    Let's have a look at the required techs:

    The required techs are yellow (assuming we want Longbowmen).
    As you can see, the research is surprisingly streamlined despite the wide array of required techs.
    However, if you look at the costs it's quite clear that this is not an early game strategy. And it skips some useful techs like animal husbandry which you probably want to get, too. And a religion would be nice ... RoK or Order come to mind.

    And if you think, city raiders II is enough and Crusade is politically incorrect, then consider taking the Amurite leader Valledia, who is Organized and Arcane and has access to the awesome Firebows - and a fireball more than makes up for the lack of charisma since it allows you to skip building catapults. :)

    I haven't tried it yet - I never even played any of those races. But I think I'll give them a try now.
     

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  2. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    You present an interesting case.

    I'm all for making my archers more useful. The Ljosalfars commonly use archers, so you've got my attention.

    Warfare is absolutely necessary... IIRC, it provides the City Raider promos...ok ... and I often use the Conquest civic myself.

    Education - the Ljos usually need it anyway; and the Apprenticeship civic is good for a long time.

    Battlefield XPs could make up for not having/using some civics - 'cause that Theocracy civic is a long, hard journey for us.

    So any Warrior with the City Raider promos is upgraded to an Archer and sent forth better able than either original to take and hold a city? I can see that yet...

    It does feel more like an improvement of Warriors and not Archers. But, if I were at the point where I could train a level 4 Warrior giving him the City Raider promos right off the production line, then I'd likely upgrade them to Archers exactly as you suggest. It might be simpler just to do the usual combined arms stack and have regular Archers occupy a captured city after the melee troops did their thing.

    I've got to look at it more though...

    Good presentation in any event, thank you for the food for thought...
     
  3. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Or you could just spam Bronze Stygs/Iron Champions.
     
  4. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    Well, the thread's idea is to suggest a way to "re-invent" or improve archers as city conquerors and find out if it's worthwhile to bother doing so. It might not be. Still, I like that someone's investigating a new idea, rather than just saying "Use fireballs/cats/etc., archers suck".
     
  5. slowcar

    slowcar King

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    you build warriors and upgrade them to longbows, isn't that kind of expensive?
     
  6. someone67

    someone67 Warlord

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    Yes it is. But you can also get archers with enchanted blades this way...
     
  7. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    The upgrade is more economical and faster at Warriors to Archers for about 75 :gold: , that is a just produced level 4 Warrior with City Raider promotions immediately upgraded to Archer giving a city conqueror and a city holder.

    That it can be done, doesn't mean that it should be done. The longbowmen upgrade is more expensive not to mention requiring yet another long research path. Although if I were rich enough to contemplate doing this, I might just go ahead.

    I'm thinking that it's not so much the :gold: upgrade cost as the :science: costs; this (upgrading Warriors to Archers) is definitely a time-consuming sequence too. We'd be well into the game, either winning or losing, no longer too concerned about Archery 'cause we've Mages and Sorcerors and Champions, etc.
     
  8. Doug Piranha

    Doug Piranha Warlord

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    Most people are familiar with the phrase "Jack of all trades", but many don't know that it continues, "master of none". In Civ4 and even more so in FfH, I've found it much more advantageous to have specialized units as opposed to multi-purpose units. I try to put defensive promotions on my defenders and offensive promotions on my attackers. Why spend a lot of money to promote a city raider warrior to an archer that will have the same (or lower) attack? Let the archers do their job of defending stacks and cities, and let the warriors do the attacking. If they die, build more.
     
  9. DirtyFinger

    DirtyFinger Prince

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    The idea is that you can completely skip researching the melee branch, concentrating on the archery line. That way you still can put defensive promotions on defenders and offensive promotions on attackers, but you'd only need to build a single type of unit and a single type of support structure.
     
  10. Lemminkäinen

    Lemminkäinen Warlord

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    How about Form of the Titan instead of Theocracy?
     
  11. WarKirby

    WarKirby Arty person

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    Why not just give City Raider III to an axeman, instead.

    It'll save the extra research on bowyers, and axemen are available pretty early. ie, before your enemy has powerful defenses to counter them.
     
  12. popejubal

    popejubal Emperor

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    By the time you have Longbows, the tech cost for Bronze Working seems pretty cheap. This sounds like a better plan to me because the cost of upgrading is quite steep and that money could have easily gone into :science: for Bronze. Axemen are cheap and plentiful and have an excellent base strength for the cost once you have Bronze.

    For that matter, Copper equipped Warriors seem like a better option than CR Longbows just because you can get SO MANY Warriors for the same cost as a single Longbow. Just switch to a civic that lets you pay cash for production and start cranking out other units that much faster.

    The big question is what does this give you as a benefit? If you are spending 75 :gold: to upgrade a Warrior to an Archer, you'd better be getting 75 :gold: worth of benefit out of the upgrade and I just don't see any significant attack strength increase that comes from this.

    I'd probably just build the Warriors directly and then build Archer units to support them in the early game and in the late game, Religious/Civ heroes supported by Mages and Archers will do the trick just fine as well.
     
  13. Der Kantelberg

    Der Kantelberg Chieftain

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    You don't want any iron weapons for your longbows?
     
  14. JonathanStrange

    JonathanStrange PrinceWithA1000Enemies

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    Skipping the melee line entirely? Then no, I'd pass: concentrating on a very deep research path that takes one well into the game before the system to train insta-city attacking Archers is ready, using civics that I'd not ordinarily use long or at all as a Ljosalfar, and not having melee troops therefore making the optional upgrade to Archer or Longbowmen virtually required? And no metal bonuses?

    I'm an Archer enthusiast but really...

    (I think I'd just use my current melee/archer mix)
     
  15. xalien

    xalien Prince

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    The last time I've upgraded enchanted warrior to an archer he lost that promotion.
     
  16. EverNoob

    EverNoob Prince

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    Looks like an interesting idea...but I'm thinking Warriors --> Horse Archer with CR sounds even more interesting, and more workable IMO.
     
  17. DirtyFinger

    DirtyFinger Prince

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    Can warriors even upgrade to mounted units ? Just chariots, I thought.
     
  18. someone67

    someone67 Warlord

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    Warriors can upgrade to archers, wich in turn upgrade to horse archers, iirc:confused:
     
  19. Zechnophobe

    Zechnophobe Strategy Lich

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    All those upgrades are really expensive. Remember that money for upgrades comes from the same source as science for techs. Also, without Iron your Longbowmen are only a smidge better than bronzed axemen... which you can get much much earlier.

    Ultimately this seems to be about the equivalent of trying to get city Garrison promotions on arch-mages.

    In the end of all this tech racing, your 'payoff' is just not that impressive, especially in the scope of FFH, where others are summoning armies, doing massive stack damage, or whatever.
     
  20. DirtyFinger

    DirtyFinger Prince

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    True, as a replacement for a conventional army it seems too uneconomic.

    Well, at least we can use this idea to create more useful flurries or marksmen.
     

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