1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Archery units slaughtering firearms units

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by GlobularFoody, Sep 26, 2010.

  1. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2010
    Messages:
    2,176
    Yea i know its from napoleon war game, it was simply a point I wanted to make, riflemen still had to get fairly close to their targets to even shoot. And from what you can see in the pictures, those armies is pretty close xD
     
  2. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,088
    Location:
    Iowa USA
    They need to fix some aspects of combat. Can they take care of this in a patch?
     
  3. hewhoknowsall

    hewhoknowsall Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    294
    18th century musketmen: 50 yards effective range, <3 shots a minute
    English longbowmen: 200 yards effective range, 12 shots a minute

    However, musketmen did have some important advantages over archers:

    Faster training time
    Muskets faster to mass produce
    Muskets easier to maintain
    Muskets can be fired even when sick, but a longbowmen would have to be in good condition to fire a longbow
    Muskets can be fired from cover
    Muskets had a phycological effect
    Muskets had greater penetrating power
    Muskets could have a bayonet
    Muskets did not consume as much energy to fire in a battle




    I'm ok with 18th century line infantry having less range than longbowmen. But modern infantry and tanks? That's beyond suspension of disbelief. The entire point of his new combat system was to provide a more tactical combat system, but once they reach modern warfare they suddenly change it into a tactical combat system and scrap ranged ability for guns?

    WTF?
     
  4. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,088
    Location:
    Iowa USA
    Yes in the live preview, remember the trebuchet giving holy hell to the french cannon.

    Again effective range of a treb is around three hundred yards. Napoleon's cannon had an effective range of up to 1440 yards. Those trebs would never have made it into firing range. Treb with a good crew could possibly throw a rock, greek fire, cow, or head every 1 minute 38 seconds, where a cannon could get 4 shots per minute. So yeah some things need addressing. I wonder if a wooden frigate has a chance against a battleship in this game. These simple things should have been addressed from the outset of developing civ 5.
     
  5. AgaresOaks

    AgaresOaks Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    14
    It's abstraction, people. Those things are "melee" because compared to their contemporaries, they had significantly shorter range. If things were to scale up properly, you'd basically see only artillery late game because it'd outrange everything by SOOOOOOO much there'd be no reason to get anything else. (WW2 era artillery shoots at, what? 10, 20 tiles if archers get a 1 tile space? Modern artillery would be like 100 tiles?)
     
  6. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2009
    Messages:
    5,088
    Location:
    Iowa USA
    I wish I had access to the unitxml file, i would change some unit stats in this regard.
     
  7. Lawrie

    Lawrie Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2008
    Messages:
    387
    Yeah I think so! For me anything relating to 'range and damage' descreptancies stand out more than say crossbow men beating musketeers!

    To be honest i just kind of belive that the combat values that differentiate the units do enough to reflect there differences. The exceptions are relatively rare, and history too is full of them, so I definately don't believe there should be an automatic - this is more modern it should win addition to the combat rules. Certainly fixing ranges though should be applied, though i understand that they are trying to make the units distinct in each epoch.

    That is they want to simulate the effect archers as ranged units had in an arena of melee units, where as in the industrial age well... the ranged element was a 'given' rather than a distinct seperate element of warfare from mass melee.

    So you gotta have the right balance to make the units of each era stand out against there normal foes rather than balance everything in proportion to every unit of every era.
     
  8. hewhoknowsall

    hewhoknowsall Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    294
    Problem:

    1. What if infantry and archers coexist in a civ game? Your idea is that the combat ranges scale up abstractly, but what if units from 2 eras coexist?

    2. Why do 18th century cannon units outrange tanks that have longer barrels, more advanced ballistics design and better targeting systems? Neither can indirect fire that well?

    3. Why do longbowmen outrange modern artillery?

    4. Gameplay wise an archer could outrange and fire a at a tank from across a mountain and eventually destroy it.

    5. How do longbowmen fire at jet fighters?
     
  9. the343danny

    the343danny Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2008
    Messages:
    498
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    A decent solution is to give gunpowder units the ability to fire from the same range as an archer, but have it not be able to shoot over trees, units, hills, or mountains, no matter their promotion. Also maybe it will be good to make them need to be right next to cities like at the moment to attack them.
     
  10. gonzo562

    gonzo562 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2010
    Messages:
    43
    are ya firearm units getting destroyed inside the enemy territories.

    Their couple policies that buff units when fighting within your territory.
     
  11. Peng Qi

    Peng Qi Emperor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2007
    Messages:
    1,431
    Location:
    Irrelevant.
    Or make archery units upgrade to cannons or something. Or just make a "fast cannon" style unit that archers upgrade into. Some kind of light mortar with no setup time.
     
  12. which dereri

    which dereri Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    6
    I don't care if it's realistic as long as it plays well. Musketmen feel strong and cheap to me and you can get them really early. Why would they make them dominate any civ that is a little behind?
     
  13. hewhoknowsall

    hewhoknowsall Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    294
    Strawman? Musketmen historically were weaker one vs one against longbowmen, but mech infantry should be able to shrug off 1000 longbow arrows without penetrating it's armor.
     
  14. westward

    westward Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2006
    Messages:
    25
    History is the inspiration for this game, not the shackles that bind it.

    Mounted units should be using their superior movement to flank and kill crossbowmen.

    Superior tech should give you an edge, but it shouldn't make you invincible. If you're running your technologically superior units blindly into ranged fire without first scouting or clearing the way, maybe you deserve to lose?
     
  15. Nague

    Nague Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    1
    ok, i had to register for this...stop trying to justify this.

    The reason archers have range over the riflemen and following units is simply that you cant make them ranged because then ALL units in the later game would be ranged.
    Its simply a change of scope, the archery ranges are now melee and the new extreme range artilleries take the ranged spot.

    The devs clearly overlooked the consequences during the direct transition and have to modify the archers versus units of eras where the combat ranges changed.
     
  16. Cu Chulainn

    Cu Chulainn The Unoriginal

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,377
    How's this for an idea?

    Give gunpowder infantry units Return Fire ability. They would still have no ranged ability of their own, but when fired upon by a ranged unit would return fire. Give muskets range 1 for this ability and range 2 for rifles. Give modern artillery (cannon and better) immunity from these counter attacks.
     
  17. hewhoknowsall

    hewhoknowsall Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2009
    Messages:
    294

    Still problematic;

    Tanks and infanty still outrange cannons. Longowmen have a range of 3, yet tanks and infanty outrange them by even more. Therefore, you'd have tank and I gantry having a counter range of 3 hexes, which would make them able to counter long ranged modern artillery, which is NOT realistic.
     
  18. Cu Chulainn

    Cu Chulainn The Unoriginal

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,377
    Well, the Longbow range of 3 really needs to go in favor of some other bonus, but separate issue, I guess. Under this idea, artillery would be immune to counter by units of the same or previous era.
     
  19. Revoran

    Revoran Prince

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2010
    Messages:
    493
    Agreed, for musketmen, (a little less for minutemen and musketeers because they are UU's) it's a little bit believable (as long as the archer gets in first). Riflemen is pushing it - and for WWI Infantry and Paratroopers/Mech Infantry it is no longer believable.
     
  20. AgaresOaks

    AgaresOaks Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Great. Let's just have 100 range artillery and 50 move tanks so things scale properly, then. Oh wait.

    2-5 are basically completely irrelevant because your industrial/modern era units will utterly crush bowmen of any type. Is it unrealistic? Sure. Does it have any impact on gameplay? *crickets* Hell, in context you're probably taking several YEARS worth of arrows on your giant death robot while doing absolutely squat before it gets some scratches on it.

    1's basically only relevant for rifling. Could that use some rebalancing? Probably, riflemen should be markedly more competitive than archers. For basically everyone else, you're lucky to make a dent with any reasonable number of forces. And hell, you need to be like 3:1 bows to be competitive against rifles, and that's starting to look kinda competitive in real life too.
     

Share This Page