Ardennes Offensive

[Sarevok]

I made one for Passchendaele and Pearl Harbor, now its time for the ardennes offensive.

Today in 1944 was when 25 German divisions consisting of the bulk of hitler's elite SS units hit the allies in a do-or-die attack to seize antwerp's immense supplies. The allies were totally unprepared, believing that germny was exhausted by the war and couldnt fight any longer. The offensive through the ardennes was one of the bloodiest and most notorious battles ever seen. The battle is now known as Either the Ardennes Offensive or the Battle of the Bulge. This is a discussiopn thread concerning those hellish 6 weeks in the bloody and cold Ardennes.

 

[pawpaw]

doomed to fail--it needed allied airpower neutalized by the weather to suceede. as soon as the weather cleaned the planes and bombers were zapping anything that moved

 

[privatehudson]

Also when the weather was bad the German armour and supplies were clogged up on the roads unable to advance quickly, either way they lost out.

One thing you don't see very often btw is remarks on the British intervention in the battle. British troops were engaged on the Northern area of the campaign for some time, though this is largely ignored in many books I have seen, or sidelined to maybe 5-6 pages out of 300.

 

[Constantine]

And the 101 airborne holding the Bastonge pocket and thus delaying the Germans. And who can forget Gen. Macuffile(sp?) reply to German surrender demands.

"Nuts"

 

[Sarevok]

that was it, and that fight was pure bloodlust. Uts suprising though that an airbourne unit held off tanks, but then agian Arnhem was just 2 months earlier.

 

[Case]

Originally posted by Sarevok
Its suprising though that an airbourne unit held off tanks

As well as the 101st Airborne, the American forces encircled at Bastogne included about half an armoured division (from memory, Combat Command B and some of Combat Command R from the 5th Armoured Division). The tankers contribution is often ignored.

OTOH, when the conditions were right, elite light infantry were able to hold off armour - For instance, the Australian 9th Division defeated one and a half German armoured divisions during the siege of Tobruk, and Soviet infantry inflicted crippling losses on the armour-heavy German 6th Army at Stalingrad.

 

[Sarevok]

of course the stalingrad case was a bit... messy. the casualties to kill the 6th army were outright insane.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Although the British helped stabilize and remove the "Bulge" I think Monty suxxors. Pompous windbag who lacked imagination.

 

[privatehudson]

Montgomery's talents or otherwise is no justification for the exclusion in a lot of films and literature of the British support for the American armies in the area. And yes, as has been stated, with the right conditions, usually those that impede armour being used properly it's easy for infantry to hold a position if supplied.

 

[Case]

Montgomery did well during the battle - he recognised that it was primarily an American afair, and concentrated on supplying support to the American units involved (including the US 9th Army which was part of his 21st Army Group and another American Army which was transfered to his command after being cut off from the US 12th Army Group's HQ by the German 'bulge').

However, while this generated lots of good-will from American generals, he threw it away shortly after the battle when he told reporters that British troops were primarily responsible for stoping the Germans.

 

[Sarevok]

Monty ALWAYS did that, and I cant stand people who do that. He seems to me to just have become way too cocky and arrogant after El Alamein.

 

[Case]

He was cocky and arrogant before El Alamain as well

 

[Sarevok]

naturally... what do you all know about the battle of the bulge?

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

I'm pretty familiar with Wacht am Rhein.

What specifically are you looking for?

 

[joespaniel]

The Battle of the Bulge began as a route for the US Army, many units were overrun and surrendered in the first few days. Some stood and fought, even when hopelessly surrounded. Most of them were wiped out while the support units retreated.

It had all the markings of a disaster.

Some credit must go to Eisenhower, who saw the opportunity to engage the German army in the open, out from behind the Seigfried line. He rallied his generals and gave the order to hold the line, which helped prevent a wider disaster.

The British, Canadian and Polish forces to the north saw some heavy action, but they were not in the crosshairs of the massed German armored forces. The Americans were.

The most bitter fighting of the Western Front occured during December and January of that winter. Entire divisions were chewed to pieces in that frozen hell.

I never knew just how bad it was until I read a few books about it. It was very bloody, the men who fought there suffered horribly. The temperatures never got above freezing, the soldiers lived in holes night and day, enduring artillery bombardments and constant attacks and counterattacks.

My grandfather was an platoon sargeant in the 5th Infantry Division, which was part of Patton's counter-offensive at the southern part of the German salient. He survived day after day of numbing cold and constant battle, then got wounded and evacuated to England.

He didn't talk about it much, except to say that no movie ever did justice to what really happened there. It was a slaughterhouse.

 

[Sarevok]

can you suggest any books, or perhaps put up some pictures?

 

[joespaniel]

Citizen Soldiers by Stephen Ambrose gives the "grunt's eye view" of the war in France and the Low Countries for Americans in 1944.

I'd say it rates in the top 10 best novels about WWII.

 

[Sarevok]

sounds kind of interesting. I think ill be sure to look at that as i have yet to find a good book on the ardennes.

 

[joespaniel]

Map of the battle

Photographs from the battle

Story and pictures

 

[Sarevok]

thanks, ill look at them tommorow as I have no more time for today.