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Are Castles worth the hammers?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Revent, Jul 15, 2012.

  1. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

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    I have done this with the Izzy and love it. Just 2-3 high production cities get castles, at the least the HE city and buro capital, and then churn super trbs to go warring with drafted mace are a fast way to get CR3 maces. Skipping Feud/gunpowder to draft Maces require settled GG's to get CR3. But very usefull specially if no horses available.
     
  2. ksa76

    ksa76 Chieftain

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    One should always consider building at least one castle. Whether it be in the bureau capital for the extra trade route or in the heroic epic city for an extra great general.

    The "castle event" (Event131, High Warlord, prereq: City with castle AND NOT Emancipation civic, Obsolete: RADIO or REFRIGERATION or PLASTICS or SATELLITES or ADVANCED_FLIGHT or ECOLOGY; Active/Weight: 80/200; Result: 1.you gain 100 gold, 2.you gain 2 free Pikeman units, 3.city gains 1 free settled great general).
     
  3. Xcalibrator

    Xcalibrator Ultraviolet Catastrophe

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    Deleted for irrelevance. I was responding to something I probably misunderstood
     
  4. duckstab

    duckstab Child of Noble Family

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    I'll build castles if I'm Protective and running an EE, and willing/able to avoid Economics for a long time, or if I decide it's worth going for the "Best Defense" quest. Otherwise, no. For that matter, I rarely build walls.
     
  5. Jex

    Jex Drafted Rifles Are OP

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    I think the only time I've ever used castles was in defensive war with muskets when the AI caught me off guard. TMIT's right, the AI will sit outside a castled city forever slowly bombarding the defenses down, giving you plenty of time to reinforce the besieged city. The AI ended up suiciding its entire stack against a bunch of city garrison muskets, after spending an eternity and a half whittling away the defenses with a couple of trebuchets.

    Never used the economic bonus, but I tend to beeline rifling and avoid engineering, so the era where castles remain relevant is very short. Seems like it would be more useful in games with tech trading disabled.
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Don't you trade for engineering? It's useful for the extra road move anyway. You can still build and use castles until economics, and none of the major renaissance military techs (mil trad, rifling, steel) require having economics. I guess if you're sure you can reach econ first it's worth just picking up the merchant from doing so, but if not I'm not sold on bothering to get that instead of the military techs, and in that case you can just trade for engineering and probably have it considerably before rifling or mil trad anyway.
     
  7. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    well I typically trade for eng with something I picked up when running for MT and get it typically for quicker cuirassiers movement around empire...

    sooo well I typically don't have time to build castles for some marginal benefit when waging final war.

    I just can't imagine situation where I would go for engineering with the intent of building Castles...even the BC era eng bulb is done due to trebuchets and not castles.
     
  8. Jex

    Jex Drafted Rifles Are OP

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    Yeah, I usually trade for engineering. I suppose it's more of an issue of being short on hammers at point in the game, and having little relative need for the commerce boost. Often up to rifling cities are too busy building things like universities, forges, or units, and after rifling I'm going on the offensive anyway, and can't be bothered to produce defensive buildings. It's more of issue of laziness than anything else, perhaps. :p
     
  9. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

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    Good point there with the Universities. Since they're considered a priority build, I can see why one would build them instead of castles, especially if you haven't built walls yet.
     
  10. Riflin'Joe

    Riflin'Joe Prince

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    The irony here is that its precisely because the AI loves them so much - presumably for the defence - that their associated tech loses value as a self-research option. If the AI didn't beeline Engineering with such monotonous regularity, there'd be more incentive to do so oneself, at least with protective, thus making castles a little more appealing. Then again, I'd also have to agree with the sentiment that there's usually just better things to be building in that period.
     
  11. Doshin

    Doshin jolly yellow giant

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    To make the question a little more difficult: are Citadels worth the hammers?

    Let's assume that horses are available, so Conquistadors can be built.
     
  12. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    See now that is even more odd, as Unis aren't even a good building for their cost.
     
  13. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    the reason why unis are good is because they unlock the oxford
     
  14. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

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    ^^Which Zero feels isn't worth building ;) I can see his point, since he routinely rushes for Engineering.

    Which makes the case for an EE even stronger. Zero, you might want to give it a try, just to see how it goes :). The nice thing about an espionage economy is that it doesn't need nearly as much infrastructure as self-research. You can put off building the academy, which means you can put off early libraries.
     
  15. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    To bad Oxford isn't worth it's hammer cost either. It comes very late, and only gives you a very marginal benefit. By the time you have finished it, and it has payed itself off you should have already been in a position to win the game. Oxford doesn't help you win the game, it only helps you win more.

    I will never ever ever use an economy that is not hybrid anymore, as every single one of the specialized economies that people argue are good are extremely sub-optimal when you could make use of everything good about all of them. But I will admit I don't make use of Spies very much, or at all usually. But putting off and early library is going to be your downfall as Civ is all about the early game, and if you make your early game weaker you are only going to make the late game harder. Also one of the EEs weakest aspects is it's early game which is why I stay away from it.
     
  16. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Oxford doesn't help you win the game? So you can always win with trebs or cannons? Yes it's true that the human player can often overpower the AI around this time (cannons, drafting). But if not playing on pangea, and playing at a high difficulty level, I think games can often go on longer. Again, I play with Kmod and the AI is a million times smarter/better, so I can't just ROFLSTOMP it with cannons all the time anymore.
     
  17. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    Kmod AI isn't smarter it is just much more aggressive. Yes I can always win with either Trebs or Cannons, and if you slugs on a bit you are still better off building more units instead of Oxford. Also building Wealth, and Research is much much much more cost effective than Oxford. Even if you aren't playing on Pangaea once you have your own continent the game is as good as won. Thus Oxford will only help you win more, and doesn't help you get into a position to win.
     
  18. coanda

    coanda Emperor

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    Espionage is a unique case, because espionage costs will vary so widely depending on how much you are focusing on espionage. The religion + holy city bonus is something you always try to get with an EE, but often it's not worth the cost if you aren't investing heavily in espionage (generally you self-found something like Confucianism or Christianity, but if you can't do that you gotta get on the warpath to your nearest holy-city neighbor). The espionage-points-generated discount is another one; the more points you create the less you pay per mission. To put in straightforward terms... in a dedicated espionage economy, you pay about 20% of base costs for each mission. In a hybrid economy making use of espionage, you pay about 40% of base costs for each mission. This makes espionage very much something you can't "make use of everything good about" without focusing on it to a high degree.
     
  19. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    It is strong, but still unneeded to be used at all. :p When I am real lazy I won't even bother putting my points on anyone, and I can still win on Deity. So I don't see it being needed to win, while it is very strong for getting out of bad situations it will not catapult you ahead.
     
  20. damerell

    damerell Slow Worker

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    Yes, I think it is completely clear that hammers are worth the hammers. :)

    More seriously, I agree with what others have wrote; in a city the AI may attack, until they have more effective bombardment than trebuchets, a castle may pay off by allowing you to bring up forces and crush the attackers. I do think they should become obsolete later, but who doesn't?
     

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