Are citadels going to be worth building?

[footslogger]

I can't really see myself wanting to expend a great general on building a citadel. They have good defensive advantages but where would you put them? At a chokepoint perhaps but I think I would rather use a fort for that purpose than use up a great general. In any other location an enemy could just take a detour round them.

 

[Olleus]

If you have completely run out of other uses for great general -ie you already have 1 per 3-5 normal units.

 

[Sarda]

Citadels provide double the defensive bonus a fort does, and it takes -3hp (30%) of a enemy units life per turn just standing near it. At a chokepoint one of these backed up by ranged units would be nigh impregnable.

In the 2h live video, Greg held off france who was almost 4x as high score and ages of tech ahead of him with a single citadel with trebutchet support.

 

[Iceciro]

Citadel's use is really going to depend on the chokepoints you may or may not have available to use on the map. It'll be a very strategic, map-dependent thing.

 

[warpstorm]

I can easily see using one of these near a choke point (especially in MP).

 

[Schuesseled]

a citadel is over twice as good as a fort, so yeah they have a use.

 

[Selous]

and there is going to be many more choke points in ciV than cIV with the hex tiles over the square tiles

 

[Olleus]

and there is going to be many more choke points in ciV than cIV with the hex tiles over the square tiles

Erm, I don't see why. I can see there being a few more, 50% more at best, but there were very few in Civ4 to start with. I fail to understand this hype about there being chokepoints everywhere. There won't be.

 

[warpstorm]

There won't be.

I've seen screen shots where there were mountain ranges with one pass.

 

[Cromagnum P.I.]

Erm, I don't see why. I can see there being a few more, 50% more at best, but there were very few in Civ4 to start with. I fail to understand this hype about there being chokepoints everywhere. There won't be.

I kind of agree and disagree with this statement. I think the additional chokepoints is less about the hexes and more about the fact that units have ZOC (Zone Of Control) again.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Great generals are great for offensives; and a few will be useful in defense. But I can see Citadels being more useful if you are playing defensively and have finished expanding in a particular direction.

Put one (#) between two cities(*) like this this:
{never mind - can't get the grid to look right}
imagine the citadel at the point of a >, with one city two hexes behind & above; and another two hexes behind and below.

Anyone attacking from the right has deal with the citadel before attacking the cities, and while they are attacking the citadel, the attackers will be in range of one city or the other.

 

[Drawmeus]

If you don't have a good chokepoint to defend or are aggressively warmongering, it's a waste of a great general. If you have a good chokepoint and are playing defensively, it's a fantastic use of a great general.

It is situational.

 

[Bad Brett]

If you don't have a good chokepoint to defend or are aggressively warmongering, it's a waste of a great general. If you have a good chokepoint and are playing defensively, it's a fantastic use of a great general.

It is situational.

But how often do you play defensively? That usually means that you are really weak and have no chance of winning. At least that was usually the case in Civ IV. Did anyone actually like the protective trait?

 

[playshogi]

Citadels + Great Wall would be a mighty defense. Even without Great Wall, units can't just walk past its ZOC and so would incur 6 damage just trying to walk on by. 2 citadels could defend a 6 tile wide front. Put some ranged units behind it. Add Oligarchy +33% defense, and Himeji castle +25% defense. And watch the AI suicide itself.
I think if you are trying to win culturally, you will need to play defense near the end.

 

[Celevin]

But how often do you play defensively? That usually means that you are really weak and have no chance of winning. At least that was usually the case in Civ IV. Did anyone actually like the protective trait?

"Playing defensively" doesn't mean turtling in cities, it means making use of your culture area as opposed to theirs. I would say that at the higher difficulties, I killed 3/4's or more of my opponent's units in my land as opposed to theirs. Better healing, less troop maintenance, better line of sight, roads... It was a much better idea. In Civ5, I can see myself doing something similar (though probably not that extreme).

 

[Thyrwyn]

But how often do you play defensively? That usually means that you are really weak and have no chance of winning. At least that was usually the case in Civ IV. Did anyone actually like the protective trait?

Playing offensively will inversely affect your ability to achieve a Diplomatic Victory. It will also diminish the number of available research pact partners, making a science victory harder It may or may not affect your ability to achieve a culture victory.

In Civ IV, playing offensively actually made all of the Victory conditions easier.

 

[jaldaen]

As a usual peacemonger in Civ IV... I would have liked to have had a citadel in certain spots just to discourage certain AI from attacking me from a particular direction (or at least slow them down so that I could pump out some support units). As stated before the citadel is situational and really best used to "lock down" an approach toward your empire at a chokepoint.

 

[Schuesseled]

Erm, I don't see why. I can see there being a few more, 50% more at best, but there were very few in Civ4 to start with. I fail to understand this hype about there being chokepoints everywhere. There won't be.

Without corner movement mountains becomes much more useful as semi-choke points.

 

[Tennyson]

I could see using one to protect a crucial resource from being pillaged. My first choice would be a city, but if I can't afford one, a citadel would allow me to free up some units to serve elsewhere.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

A "Choke point" for a citadel is like, three hexes . For two citadels it's six!

Japan in and after the middle ages, and China for all time, will be able to make any area they choose impregnable.