Are drill promotions a viable choice for BtS samurai?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by DigitalBoy, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,346
    I think that drill samurai with one promotion towards shock could be pretty good against macemen. The shock will give them a strong bonus, and the first strikes can help leverage that bonus.

    But what about samurai with all their promotions towards the Drill line? On the one hand, they can have a ton of first strikes, but if their strength is about the same as an ordinary maceman, the first strikes don't mean as much.

    Promoting down the combat line squanders some of the potential the samurai gets by starting with Drill I, but the increased strength from combat promotions helps get more out of the 2-3 first strikes the samurai already has.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. PibbZ

    PibbZ Paladin

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2001
    Messages:
    724
    Location:
    Arendal, Norway
    The only unit i have experience with that got massive benefits from drill is the machine gun. It can under most circumstances be the strongest defending ground unit for a very long time, and as long as youre fighting gunpowder units, its simply awesome.

    I tend to upgrade my defending machinegunners with woodsman 1,2 & 3, as number3 gets 2 free firststrikes, while the +forest defense bonus adds to its strength vs the other units that are attacking it.

    I would try to do so with the samurai aswell, boosting combat 1 + shock, and then further down the combat line, to make the best out of your already 2 first strikes :)
     
  3. Iranon

    Iranon Deity Whipping Boy

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,214
    Location:
    Germany
    Since First Strikes are excellent on the defense and I rarely attack with a stack before I did some collateral damage with siege weapons, I favour Drill all the way, with a few special forces going along the Woodsman line.

    First Strike doesn't help against horsies though, so something needs to be done against them... beelining for Samurai only to be kept in check by some lame Horse Archers and slapped silly by knights eventually is unfun.
     
  4. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,527
    Location:
    Dancing in the Dark
    I'd say, go Drill with most of them. Even against maces, 3-6 first strikes can mean that you win the battle with no wounds at all, if lucky (if troops are equal, a succeeding first strike is 20% damage, right?)

    Ofc, CR with the ones you plan to attack with :)

    EDIT: Since you are Toku, you can't really argue that going down combat is waste, since they also start with Combat one, so either way there's a promo deadend. Ofcourse, Drill I has less effect than Combat I
     
  5. PibbZ

    PibbZ Paladin

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2001
    Messages:
    724
    Location:
    Arendal, Norway
    Nobody relies on a stack with only one unit either, combine youre samurai zerg with a few pikes and you should be safe :)
     
  6. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,527
    Location:
    Dancing in the Dark
    With Tokus traits, 5 xp would make for a Drill I, Combat I, Combat II, Formation Samurai for a modified strength of exactly 11,6 against horses?
     
  7. PibbZ

    PibbZ Paladin

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2001
    Messages:
    724
    Location:
    Arendal, Norway
    Hm yeah, with formation it will ofcourse be easier to survive, but i would still stick to a few pikes, as a dedicated horse-defense. Dropping formation on your samurais will allow you to pick up cover or shock, or combat III instead, making every unit more specialized.

    Thats how i prefer it to be, as no unit is really capable of "doing it all", compared to a mixed stack. :)
     
  8. pxpdoo

    pxpdoo Ninja Burger Fry Cook

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2003
    Messages:
    565
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dictionopolis
    I've always thought of "First Strike" like a few regiments of archers behind an army, decimating opponants before they get within hand-to-hand range. Two or Three first strikes, offensive or defensive, can see the the lowliest unit win against more powerful units, in my (mostly unintentional) experience...
     
  9. azzaman333

    azzaman333 meh

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    22,877
    Location:
    Melbourne, AUS Reputation:131^(9/2)
    Drill is the difference between winning but taking quite a bit of damage, and winning without getting hurt especially if your odds are high.
     
  10. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,478
    Location:
    Beyond the Veil
    But healing in the game is free, it only costs time and if you have a great medic, then its only 2 or 3 turns at the most. If your unit dies however, then it takes a lot more time to build a new one, as well as costing a substantial amount of hammers. They way I see it combat vs drill can be summed up as:

    High chance of damage + low chance of death vs medium chance of damage + medium chance of death

    And for the reasons above, the first option is better.
     
  11. Refar

    Refar Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    4,608
    Time however is the single most important ressource in this game... I.e. on Normal speed.

    The difference between healing 1 or 3 turnd are 2 turns more for the enemy to rally reinforcements, 2 turns longer to endure WW in your home cities, 2 turns later untill the next cinquered city will become usefull, ... , 2 truns later win, ...
     
  12. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,478
    Location:
    Beyond the Veil
    But if your unit dies then you have to wait 10 turns to build a new one and bring it to the combat zone and even then it won't have the exp of the old unit. So it all depends just by how much drill increases your chances of dying compared to combat, and IMHO its actualy quite a lot.
     
  13. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2007
    Messages:
    6,527
    Location:
    Dancing in the Dark
    That is highly situational. If you have an archer and the enemy has an archer, and you pick drill I against his Combat I, you're right, and chance of dying will increase 10-20% because of that one decision, but if you have, say, 6 Samurai with either combat III or Drill III, aswell as a couple of siege weapons against a stack of: 1 pikeman, 1 crossbowman, 3 macemen and a trebuchet, 6 combat Samurai might have a slightly higher overall chance to win, but Drill would be better against atleast the pike and the trebuchet, as the two samurai attacking these would take approximately no damage - this would also provide your stack with one defender against counter attacks.

    I am not insisting that Combat is useless, I just find Drill that much better on all units available to get it.
     
  14. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,478
    Location:
    Beyond the Veil
    Hmmm, thats an interesting example. I think that the best thing to do would simply be to work out the maths and see what comes out on top. The calculations would be horrible though, as your not only looking to see if the unit survives but how well it survives.
    I'll get back to you once I've tried (and failed) to solve this mathematicaly.
     
  15. pxpdoo

    pxpdoo Ninja Burger Fry Cook

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2003
    Messages:
    565
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dictionopolis
    Both excellent points. Think the result has to be, however, a combination of promotions...
    I mean, the whole thing is we don't know what's coming at us. (If we did, then this wouldn't be a worldwide-ly awesome game.) We have to prepare, adjust, act, and so on, every single turn. That's what makes it fun, outsmarting (AI/each other), balancing everything with everything else, improving either the one or the other tile, blah blah lol
    If I absolutely had to choose, I choose Drill.
     

Share This Page