1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Are Eurekas Making Every Game the Same?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by isau, Oct 22, 2016.

  1. Dragonsbain

    Dragonsbain Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2004
    Messages:
    58
    Location:
    Netherlands
    First off I like the thing Ur/In bring to the game and yes in the games I've played I did not get all of them in the same order or time frame.
    However, they give too big a boost to the techs IMHO and the fact that they are always the same makes it so that you can plan out allot of what and how you are going to do stuff from very early on.

    I think that if they and a few options per research that would be randomly chosen ant the start of every game it would achieve the goal of different tech games per game even more, or to go one step further break up the 50% into smaller chunks like 10% 15% 25% where you have two easier to get boosts and a more difficult one.

    But as it stands, I like the system.
    It's like mini awards every time you boost something, and i need to get my next fix.
    Come on man just one more boost man, you know I am good for it....
     
  2. Dracul JOSHI

    Dracul JOSHI Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    61
    I don't see how it would make them any more broken than the aztecs... or scyhtia for that matter.
    China's bonus doesn't apply to those triggered by villages or city states.
    China's builder bonus for wonders isn't particularly good, because Wonders are quite neutered.
    The great wall is descend lategame, but requires you to remove all the features on the tiles you want to build it on... especially if you plan to expand it regularly, that can be a severe cut-in into your resources.
     
  3. Fluphen Azine

    Fluphen Azine What is Fluphen Azine?

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2013
    Messages:
    1,465
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I have to fully agree with you and your analogy is spot on imho.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  4. Biz_

    Biz_ Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    482
    i think they're just implemented and balanced poorly

    i think they were intended to add variety, but when you can half-complete a bunch of research and then get 100% of the remainder with eurekas it's just a silly way to progress through the ages
     
  5. SharTeel

    SharTeel Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2005
    Messages:
    75
    Gender:
    Male
    I would reduce them to 25%, at the most, and make china like 33% or whatever
     
  6. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,182
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    This is not a bad idea. maybe min 25% max 50% and have it RNG so averages around 33% ; makes it less predictable.
     
  7. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    9,395
    At 25% you could as well just remove the system, because at that point it's not going to have any actual influence on your greater decisions anymore. Then all the system is is a form of micromanagement that has no real impact, that's precisely the wrong approach to "balance".

    The goal is not to weaken individual tech boosts, if anything, the goal is to decrease the amount of tech boosts that you can get while keeping the ones that you can get strong so you're encouraged to actually build a strategy around your starting location.

    For that goal, simply adding some form of tech-progress decay to partly researched technologies is perfect.
     
  8. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,010
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Alternately, the broken lighter system like with CiV's prophets might make them more dynamic, though on paper even I think it sounds awful
     
  9. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    1,010
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Oh, I have a new suggest.

    Eurekas, once qualified for, have to be purchased within three turns, for a variable sum of gold or other things. Example: Your slingers made a better bow and arrow: naturally they expect a gift from the king in return for the secret. You built three airports, you can now buy the eureka for Globalization from the merchant/corporation who runs the airline.

    This would be an engaging system because even if the player is planning and controlling when the Eureka offers appear, there will be unintended conflicts with other projects every time, and the player will have to reconsider plans
     
    avl8 likes this.
  10. smartcanuck1988

    smartcanuck1988 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Messages:
    276
    I agree with OP. I found myself (and the youtubers I watched) going through the same flow of actions to get certain Eurekas. If anything, it made people research a tech to 50% and switch to another tech so they finish the other 50% with a boost. The end result is that the player is researching everything.

    I'm not sure what the solution is though. I think a combination of (A) making the base cost of techs more expensive (I don't mind keeping the boosts at 50%), (B) making the requirements for the boosts tougher to obtain unintentionally, and (C) adding more techs and branches so you must choose certain techs to ignore so you can move on to future eras but still specialize in other (think of the "leafs" in the BE).
     
  11. DSveno

    DSveno Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    30
    The solution is just 3 posts above yours. They just need to make it so that if you are not actively researching something, it will be decayed and losing researched progress over time, so that people don't abuse the switch and wait for eureka method. I always find it's silly that you can halt the researching progress for a century and it won't be lost in anyway.
     
  12. dexters

    dexters Gods & Emperors Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,182
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canada
    Eureka's not giving 50% all the time but a range of boosts works best. Adds uncertainty back.

    The worst kinds of exploits are the ones that are predictable. That's the problem with Eurekas right now.

    And there could be an inflection point such that earlier techs in the tree, and earlier techs in general works as intended (50% boost for completing certain actions) but deeper techs in the tree, especially at key points in the tech tree could be less generous.

    There's no reason they couldn't make all techs after X'era not Eureka for 50% and cost 50% more for example.

    That's a balance thing they could implement.
     
  13. funkymunky

    funkymunky Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2001
    Messages:
    112
    Location:
    Louisville, KY
    The eurekas are a good idea, but it seems like some are too easy to get, or it just seems like the mechanic is a little flat to me.

    Perhaps instead there should be a bit of randomization to them, where they are not automatically granted when you meet the criteria. Although, maybe if you meet the criteria more than once then the odds improve each time. So, like if building a fishing boat would give you one normally, there's a chance it won't the first time. But if you build two or three, then the odds improve each time to virtually guarantee it. If you need to kill a certain unit, then the first kill is a 50/50 chance, but the next kill improves the odds. Or, if you need a civic to trigger one, it only works if you actually use the civic, and the odds improve each turn you have it active. Just my 2 cents.
     
  14. avl8

    avl8 Prince

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2010
    Messages:
    361
    Eurekas and inspirations are to help humans have fun and compete with higher difficulty AIs that has decent bonuses to everything.
    Its also a thing if you neglect culture/science and want to keep up with others.

    They are very simple during ancient and classical eras. And they require very good planning ahead during late game.
    Thats what ensures you to plan ahead carefully and execute your plans with determination during late game.

    I think they are fine at the moment. Maybe devs should add decays to prevent exploits and cheesy "wont complete things before getting X" tactics.
     
    narmox likes this.
  15. smartcanuck1988

    smartcanuck1988 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2016
    Messages:
    276
    I agree that they do all that, but when the Eureka system was first introduced, the devs explained that this system was meant to differentiate between civilizations. That the map will make a big difference. I was looking forward to see how that plays out.

    Unfortunately the way it played out was the opposite, as pointed out in this thread. It seems like the Eureka system has mainly become a way to jump through the tech tree, regardless of which civ you are and where you spawn. Players found that actively pursuing the Eurekas is superior to letting the map shape your civilization (paraphrasing from what the devs said).

    To me it feels like an added puzzle. Just to make you consider few more factors if you want to be very efficient in your science. But considering how fast techs go by, and how easy to obtain many of these Eurekas, it just becomes an unnecessary hassle in my mind.
     
  16. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    1,526
    The "switch and wait for the eureka" method already has two harsh drawbacks:
    • You have a bunch of wasted beakers sitting idle rather than being put into a tech that you actually research and can start using
    • Switching away from a tech you really want soon means you don't get it as soon as you otherwise could.
     
    narmox likes this.
  17. AppleDumplingHead

    AppleDumplingHead Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,171
    I don't think your first 3 personal choices for build order necessarily make "all games the same". I also don't think those should necessarily always be your first 3. Gilgamesh, for example, gets a stronger opening with 2 wagons and then maybe a settler if you have decent production tiles, then a campus. You can take a second city with the wagons and the early campus will work to snap yourself back from missing a couple early eurekas. As Monte, I might start with 3 eagle warriors, in a similar fashion.

    I'm not making any accusations, so don't get defensive, but alot of people restart games two, three, four times, from the menu screen. If things don't seem to go according to pattern, or if they don't have the space/production/luxuries, etc, they just start over on a map where they do have the opportunity to make good on that opening. I hit random leader, emp or imm difficulty, continent, standard size and pace, and I play it out. I don't stay with it when it looks hopeless (like if I lose my capitol, I'm pretty much done, but that doesn't happen often anymore, I will keep playing if I lost one or two satellite cities. Having legitimate claims to war after the industrial era, in the right circumstances, can actually improve diplomacy, because you're siding with the crowd), but I do try to play it out if it looks really bad. I don't see the eurekas being cookie-cutter, nor do I see "every game as the same".
     
  18. Stacked_Deck

    Stacked_Deck Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2013
    Messages:
    86
    In the very early game I'd agree with you, but that's because the early Eureka's are very general. Who's not going to bother improving 3 tiles? Or kill the barbs that inevitably wander into your land? Once the game gets going it's very hard to get every eureka and the ones you do get tend to be reflective of your strategy.

    They could stand to be a lot more specific, but I wouldn't imagine that changing outside of the expansions.
     
  19. AppleDumplingHead

    AppleDumplingHead Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,171
    I don't always improve 3 tiles. Sometimes I improve one production tile and chop 2 trees for a settler.

    Sometimes you're crowded in a corner and there aren't 3 barbarians on which you get a killing shot before you'd really like to know where there is iron.
     
  20. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2008
    Messages:
    4,638
    Location:
    Toronto
    I think a big flaw with the eurekas in this regard is that there's not enough difference to shape your playstyle. The main flaw is that basically at any point in time, you have about 3 different paths you're working on - the sea, or the economy, or the military. So if you want to go down the military path, you need to work through the eurekas and those techs, and the only difference is how fast you can do it.

    The culture tree I think actually works really well in this regard, because at basically every point, it's not like you have distinct differences. Some civics will help both parts of military and economy, and I've found that some of those inspirations have been more challenging to get, so I have gone down different paths.

    But with science, I think what they're lack is a true diversity in lines and how to get to various places. So there really should be a difference between whether you build your military cavalry-heavy, archer-heavy, or melee-heavy. There should be a different path if you want gold by going market-bank or instead going trade-route heavy. There should be multiple ways to get science from the tree (maybe if you had observatories down one path, and universities down another. Maybe one path you can get your production mostly from mines, and another way you end up going lumber-mill heavy. I think we almost need a case where you get to a point, and you literally have a branch decision - do you go for choice A or choice B, and whichever one you don't pick gets locked out from you. Maybe it's not like that in every case, but maybe it should be more a case of you literally have to choose, swordsmen vs macemen, and each would have different bonuses. So if you have iron in your territory, you will develop the technology for swordsmen and use them. But if you don't, you can go the macemen route, which would be cheaper overall, but you get a worse unit. And if you go the macemen route, then you completely lock out your civ's abilities to build swordsmen.

    As it is now, you get the flaw where if you don't have iron, you both cannot build swordsmen, but it's also more expensive to get to the techs after it. It would be really nice to go down a path, see you don't have iron, and then just be able to skip that tech completely. If they truly developed a tech tree that had more decision points, and had that actually influence your cities and civilization, then you would truly see differences in gameplay.
     

Share This Page