Are Great Artists and Musicians too underpowered?

[rattatatouille]

In Civ VI the GWAMs return with Great Writers, Artists, and Musicians in the fold.

Great Writers are arguably the most powerful of the bunch, because of the following:
You earn GW points as soon as you plop down your first Theater Square, whereas you'll have to wait for a bit for Great Artists and Musicians.
Each GW provides two Great Works of Writing, which provide 4 Culture and 4 Tourism each. Their Tourism output is doubled when the Printing technology is researched. By contrast, each Great Artist provides 3 Great Works of Art, which provide only 3 Culture and 2 Tourism each, unless the Museum they're in is themed.
To compare outputs:
A filled Amphitheater (pre-Printing): 8 Culture, 8 Tourism
A filled, unthemed Art Museum: 9 Culture, 6 Tourism
A filled Amphitheater (post-Printing): 8 Culture, 16 Tourism
A filled, themed Art Museum: 18 Culture, 12 Tourism
Keep in mind that earning Great Writers is easier and earlier than Great Artists, not to mention that theming Museums is harder than it sounds (you need to fill all three slots with the same art type AND different artists).
Then we have Great Musicians, whose Great Works of Music only provide 4 Culture and 4 Tourism each - similar to a Great Work of Writing without the Printing boost. Granted, the Satellite Broadcasts card triples their Tourism output, but Great Works of Music still come later and need to use a policy card slot to be boosted.

What ways can we improve on Great Artists and Musicians?

 

[Siptah]

Yes, I think so. I build Art Museums since I will have a few Great Artists when I'm going for a CulV if I want them or not. However, I'd like to go all in on Archeology and steal artifacts from neighboring civs much more. The additional cultures of Artists is welcome though, so maybe they are not supposed to be for CulV in the first place, but for generating culture?

I'm never sure what Firaxis' approach to CulV is, actually. Are we supposed to use all GWAM + Archeology + Religion + Resorts + Parks + Wonders + Diplomacy/Trade + rush Computers to win? Or should the system be more open and you should be able to win by choosing randomly only 3 of these tourism generators? If so, they are way too unbalanced and going Writers/Resorts/Archeology beats everything else.

To me, Artists just aren't strong enough compared to Archeologists, but it helps advancing. Mary Leaky is also very nice which makes Archeology even stronger, but there is no guarantee you can get her.
Wonders aren't worth the investment just for tourism.
Religion can be quite strong, if you invest.
Musicians come too late to be of significant use and the slots are too expensive.
I dislike that my science output has such a big impact on my tourism output by computers doubling it.
Parks are nice, but I can rarely spam them.
Resorts are OP with Cristo Redentor + Eiffel Tower and allow you to ignore a lot of the rest.

 

[marius_kaparius]

They should give the concert ability that the rock bands have to the Great Musicians also. They could then be the Great Prophet equivalent for tourism spread whereas the rock bands are Apostle equivalents. I guess what follows is groupies acting as missionaries

 

[Archon_Wing]

Great Artists are completely useless with low tourism and high investment required. The worst is Donatello who only has sculptures and often will not help you with anything. The worst part is they conflict with archeology which is better until all the artifacts get taken. You can easily win a culture victory if you deleted all the artists you got and not be much worse off of. Well, maybe build one to boost Opera.

Musicians come late but at least they don't come with these issues. The lack of spots with Broadcast centers being so expensive is an issue.

 

[UWHabs]

The hardest thing about great artists is that it's incredibly hard to theme art museums. Between all the eras and types, I don't even know how many combos actually can be themed. And if you want to go archaelogical, then you don't even have space for artists as much either. If it were easier to theme museums, then maybe artists would have more value. But to me, I basically never build more than 1 art museum, and know it's just easier to send archaelogists around rather than fight for great people.

 

[Steamboat Willem]

The hardest thing about great artists is that it's incredibly hard to theme art museums. Between all the eras and types, I don't even know how many combos actually can be themed. And if you want to go archaelogical, then you don't even have space for artists as much either. If it were easier to theme museums, then maybe artists would have more value. But to me, I basically never build more than 1 art museum, and know it's just easier to send archaelogists around rather than fight for great people.

And you get +1 Era score for every artefact you dig up, so 3 per Archeologist, where you only get 1 Era score for a Great Artist.

Great Works of Writing need to be nerfed a little. 2/2 would be fine.

 

[Stringer1313]

I'm so happy this thread was started. I agree 100% they should make great artists and great musicians more interesting. They should triple the amount of tourism given by great works of music given how unworth it it is -- even with Satellite Broadcasts (does ANYONE actually use that policy card, other than in situations where you are doing so just for kicks?). Perhaps each Great Artist also gives some side benefit in addition to the Great Works?

This was another poster's idea, but I'm also confused why they didn't make Great Musicians make Rock Bands --- or at least give them the ability to form them (and yes I realize Mozart can't form a Rock Band). Maybe give (later?) Great Musicians the ability to form them, except they make super Rock Bands, with more experience. (Btw, Ed was kinda wrong when he said it was weird for older composers to give concerts in other countries, I think all those old composers at least in Europe always "toured." Lizst was the Elvis of his time, giving concerts to rabid throngs of women who were obsessed with him and driven to a frenzy at his concerts).

 

[Steamboat Willem]

Mozart can't form a Rock Band

 

[Stringer1313]

I am bumping up this thread because I have now read in multiple threads people advocating for some greater use for great musicians - perhaps tied to the Rock Band in some way - and great artists. Firaxis please do something with these Not-So-Great People!

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

As I said elsewhere, I think they should restore some of their Civ5 abilities in some fashion.

Great Musicians could have an ability similar to Rock Bands. Much more potent, but perhaps with more limited venues & only with a limited number of uses.

Great Artists should either (a) grant you a "Golden Age" bomb or (b) Culture Bomb ability.

Great Writers could be used either to (a) grant you an Inspiration Bomb (like the political treatise from Civ5) or (b) be used as a Loyalty Bomb in 1 or more cities.

Lastly, I would love to see them bring back the various acadamies from Civ5. Maybe make it a Campus building-between the Library & the University-but each campus can hold one kind of academy.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

As I said elsewhere, I think they should restore some of their Civ5 abilities in some fashion.

Great Musicians could have an ability similar to Rock Bands. Much more potent, but perhaps with more limited venues & only with a limited number of uses.

Great Artists should either (a) grant you a "Golden Age" bomb or (b) Culture Bomb ability.

Great Writers could be used either to (a) grant you an Inspiration Bomb (like the political treatise from Civ5) or (b) be used as a Loyalty Bomb in 1 or more cities.

Lastly, I would love to see them bring back the various acadamies from Civ5. Maybe make it a Campus building-between the Library & the University-but each campus can hold one kind of academy.

Posted this elsewhere but it's more applicable to this thread.

Fairly simple approach would be to provide the following alternative abilities:

Great Writer: builds a free Library that, in addition to it's normal yields, also provides +2 culture (but no tourism)
Great Artist: builds a free Monument that provides double culture and +2 Amenities (again, no tourism)
Great Musician: builds a free Rock Band once these become available (there! now Mozart can go on tour)