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[GS] Are IZs and Production good now? (Post June 2019 update)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by acluewithout, Jun 6, 2019.

  1. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    What you call "the curl" I always considered a shield, which was the symbol for production in Civ 1.
     
  2. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    How I miss building the palace... And the little touches like the population expressed in numbers (60.000). Made you feel you were managing an empire, where the numbers were abstraction of a reality, instead of bloated abstract yields that make no sense.
     
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  3. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    Can’t say I’ve really changed my view on the changes.

    MEs being able to boost aqueducts is a good change. I’m also happy to see more trees on tundra. That’s also good for Canada.

    Changes to Encampments and Airport are also good but not game changing. Overall though, I think removing Science and Culture from Harbour and Encampments Specialists is a bad change, as it makes these districts just less interesting.

    Placement rules for Lumber Mills and Quarries still seem very flat (non existent). The extra hammers are also mostly late game, which is okay for me but makes these changes a little weaker. Having more Wood on Tundra is a very good change though - will make this land a bit more desirable and interesting.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2019
  4. Zenstrive

    Zenstrive Ocean King

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    Am I the only ones loving Industrial Zone? They probably the only districts that make sense in real life moder age's sense. Also probably my cognitive bias as an engineer makes me prefer to have industrial zones.

    Every prominent cities (which are basically what Civ 6's cities represent) has industrial zones. Also, they are sorely needed if you want to quicken gathering storm's science victory. Surround your spaceport's city with the industrial zones all having factories, make two or three coal/oil/nuclear power plants to power them, stack ten trade routes originating from that city, and put promoted Magnus in that city. Boom, two turns Lagrange Laser Stations.

    My build order for all cities are now holy site, campus, harbor/commercial hub (prefer harbor), industrial zone, and then Theater Square. Early culture usually supplied by Chorus belief that gives cultures per faith buildings. Late theater squares are for archaelogical museums to gain era scores.

    Also by the time renaissance and industrial age rolling, there are open spaces where the city adjacent woods/rainforests/marshes were, ready to be used as districts.
     
  5. steveg700

    steveg700 Warlord

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    Pretty spot on!

    Lumber mills in rain forests is kind of a cop-out. Jungles are usually cleared because the land is usually too overgrown, uneven, and mushy.

    And lumber mills losing their bonus next to rivers does make the map matter less, and will generally make wooded regions largely homogeneous with hilly regions (although the latter becomes quantifiably inferior for purposes of stuff like neighborhoods and parks where appeal matters). Maps in Civ do not need to offer yield sources so homogenized that players don't get excited about opportunities to settle places that offer strong production possibilities. They just take them for granted because now production has been "fixed" the same way Civ "fixes" so many things complain about, by unburdening the player with having to make tough choices when they are dealt a tricky hand.

    Seems weird to me they made all this fuss about offering more production, and yet resources like iron and copper still don't get a production increase. So instead of having spots on the map that offer "mother loads" of production, you just get more and more "samey" areas.

    I always liked IZ's, but I always appreciated production streams rather than the easy bursts provided by chops. If you're a speed player, minor ramps in production by boosting IZ buildings isn't going to turn your head.

    Are quarries different from mines now in any meaningful way?
     
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  6. Elhoim

    Elhoim Iron Tower Studio Dev

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    As Japan I'm getting some really cool synergies, getting the IZ easily to 5-6 and even 9 (and doubled with the policy card).
     
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  7. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    Since quarries now give +1, and mines only 0.5, you really want to keep an eye on where stone is in your territory. However, Strategics also count for +1, so mined strategic resources {iron, niter, coal, uranium, aluminum} are extra priority, since they give +1.5 due to covering 2 categories.

    Also, in something I totally only just realized because @acluewithout asked if canals were worth bothering with for IZs: it's fun flavor for most civs, but if you're china you can slam them out at masonry (!!) so china can get some crazy IZs pretty early game between Aqueducts, dams, and canals. And just that fact that Japan milks +3 from each of those, they probably want to keep some canals tiles available when planning.

    I'll have to do a few games and maybe amalgamate some examples of what the new IZ can achieve. Sure, planning out this infrastructure may only mean you've only gained about +3 adjacency on average, but with craftsmen+coal plants, that's a difference of 12 production, plus the extra 2 picked up from the workshop and factory, for a net of ~14 or so. Which for most players I see on here, that sounds like a substantial sum. And let's not forget that you haven't lost any mines putting IZs by the green districts, and lumbermill changes have essentially just replaced +1 by a river with +1 all the time, and they can go on jungle. So overall, a bit more production than it might seem.
     
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  8. ezzlar

    ezzlar Chieftain

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    Tried England. IZ feels nerfed. The combination of several mines or lumber mills (4 respectively to get +2 adjacency) is very hard to combine with districts like aqueducts which is always next to the city.

    And industries arrive far too late to really matter (for England).
     
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  9. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    the adjacencies are good and England is better but it's not a huge buff. Canada actually received the bigger buff here, making them half-decent at least.

    I'd still say England is the least good Civ, given that Georgia can now make themselves semi impervious from warmongers with the Tsikhe.
     
  10. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    I've found in an england game and now a dutch game that mines and lumbermills are really conveniences. It's all about strategics+Aqueducts+dams (where applicable.) Dams are hyper valuable districts and are contemporary with IZs. It's really just: Can I settle such that an AQ+a strategic touch the same tile?
    Do I have floodplains? If so, can I fit 2 cities in such that i can have City-AQ-blanktile-AQ-city, and work in a dam to make 2 great IZ spots? (these are usually the best industrial zones)
    The above makes the dutch super good since those spots are almost all on rivers already, so you can pile on more. Simply having a single city with AQ+Dam+IZ+one other district (campus/ch/ts) is +8 for the dutch. That's every time you see a floodplains region.
    Sometimes you get lucky and end up with some quarries too. Stone is very handy.
    Regular mines for me have proven to be "finishers" that i might tack on after the fact. Mines and lumbermills are much more about the tile yield than boosting IZs now.
     
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  11. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Warlord Supporter

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    Strategics boosting IZ's is a positive. Wish you got credit for strategics connected by canal or railroad, though, not just adjacent strategics.
     
  12. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    Just having some fun with the dutch on 7 seas:
    Scenic view one snowy area:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2019-6-20_23-43-35.png

    Zooming out in the empire lens, this southern icy sea is connected to the big ocean through batavia & haarlem. Note Batavia's +10 IZ, it only has a canal and aqueduct (and 2 quarries.)
    Sadly, plain mountains don't count as land for polders, but look at those polder lakes! That +5 IZ in Delft is the worst one in my empire.
    Spoiler :

    upload_2019-6-20_23-47-37.png

    If you look around you can see some decently rated IZs. Better than the old +8 max with perfect hill placement! And the campuses aren't too shabby either. Sadly, the coal in Amsterdam really messed up the perfect ruhr spot so I could leverage the no food start (it's all fed from trade routes. It was size 6 in the industrial era.) Machu Picchu again making for big adjacency plays on the CHs.
    Spoiler :

    upload_2019-6-20_23-45-5.png

    Somehow I got Kilimanjaro again, only this time with a snaky 5 tile polder lake. See, Kilimanjaro counts as land for a polder. Mountains don't. FXS plz make mountains valid.
    Apeldoorn actually has 4 mines contributing +2 adjacency! very fun.
    Spoiler :

    upload_2019-6-20_23-46-4.png

    *auckland was in the game, amazingly.

    Overall the dutch have really been improved; the increased emphasis on river infrastructure makes their IZs extra good, the campus and TS boost being amazing as always; +50% towards dams is a nice new GS bonus. And seven seas is usually pretty hefty with polder lakes and some polder coasts.
    Production wise i think the new IZ rules have made non coal powerplants effectively obsolete. Oil is much more valuable resource for fuel because literally your entire army and navy need it, and the oil plant only gives +3 prod. Why on earth would I ever use that when i could get +10 or +16 from a coal plant that doesn't burn precious oil? It's not like oil is more efficient, it gives +4 power per unit all the same. And the nuke plant is nice for peacemongers, but again, +4 prod aura is nothing compared to what you can get on coal plants. Although it's very viable to just spam all coal from the hammers and then drop one nuke plant down, possibly use tesla/mexico city, to run most of your country on clean U235.

    I also haven't felt like making aqueducts has been slowing me down. AQs are pretty handy for the extra housing to deal with just how fertile land can be with disasters. The buff to airports (+4, +2 more when powered) is a nice touch too.
     

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  13. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    I promise no more screenshot spam. But to look back on my prediction:
    Without rivers/AQ, I don't know how most civs will keep it together. It's the source of all IZ adjacency. Maybe scrape together 2-3. That's what i was facing in the bleak hinterlands in my other 2 games.
    Germany, as proven in my sig, can easily hand out 6-7 to near every city on featureless wasteland.
    My dutch screens show a lot of +8 in good spots with everything in your favor- other civs would be sitting at +6.
    But here's some random Germany roll where I just went with my start:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2019-6-21_2-58-31.png

    Do you see Aachen's +13?! That's one spot off of perfect!! I need to sit and work out some strategies for handling all this adjacency.

    Sadly, in the Valley of Lautaro, he finished the commercial hub, so I was a bit locked into placement, although it's not too bad:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2019-6-21_2-57-44.png


    And here's a little outpost trying to be an independent city who don't need no Holy Roman Emperor. Just one city's medieval era infrastructure (imagine if I had canals to play with!)
    Spoiler :

    upload_2019-6-21_3-0-7.png

    Bonus because it's pretty:
    Spoiler :

    upload_2019-6-21_3-9-18.png


    Unlike the other pics I've posted here and in the main patch thread, this is on mid game continents, not seven seas, so no canals. Which would just up the ante a bit. Germany is still leading the pack by 4-6 average adjacency.
    Because everything comes at or by apprenticeship, you can easily pound out AQ+CH+Hansa and get these stupid +10s right away. I guess some civs can get up into the +8-10 range now, instead of being capped at 6. So there's some false hope. The kaiser is still #1, lads.
    I should update my guide...
     
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  14. MrRadar

    MrRadar Chieftain

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    No no no, please, don't stop, keep 'em coming!
    It is nice just to glance at them now and again, while still at work:)
     
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  15. Architect

    Architect Chieftain

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    Thank you for the great examples of how cool the new patch is! It is a fresh change from the constant bashing and complaining. I say IZs are good now.
     
  16. Nerevatar

    Nerevatar Chieftain

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    Do continue, it is currently my only way to satisfy my civ addiction :crazyeye::lol: more Seven Seas goodness is especially great
     
  17. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    @Sostratus I'm loving the screen caps. Some of them are very satisfying.

    It seems like you need to build IZs between two or more closely packed cities to get the most out of them. I'm not a huge fan of that.

    It's fun playing eg Germany and Japan and packing in cities. But most of the time I prefer playing much wider with my Cities. I don't like that the IZ is now boxing you into that packed design to get a decent yield.

    It might be interesting if they give IZs a harbour Adjacency. That would give you the option on either having IZs somewhere in the middle of your empire and packed in, or have them on the periphery/coasts. Although Coast will be hopeless for power generation...
     
  18. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    So, I've been playing around with IZs a bit. I really don't know what to think.

    I've had a few games where I can get a City on a river and I have a strategic resource or stone nearby. I can get up a nice triangle with my CC, an Aqueduct and an IZ. With the resource, that gets me to about +4 to +5. I can maybe get a Dam later.

    Now, I'm a guy that likes Aqueducts. The extra housing is good, and more districts has advantages. I'm also generally building IZs in Cities where I want to work more tiles. So, IZ and Aqueduct isn't all bad. If I get some power into the dam and through in a campus it all gets even better. (I also don't build many campuses, so I often end up running science projects in high production Cities to keep up.)

    So, I'm ending up with some Tall Cities that aren't too shabby.

    The adjacecies still feel a bit off - I really think they missed an opportunity not removing mine Adjacencies entirely. I suspect the hammers invested for my return don't add up. To be worth the effort, I really think your IZ needs to be closer to +5 to +7 (which I know @Sostratus is getting, but only by jamming cities together, which I don't like being the detail style - although, maybe I need to get over that).

    But overall I do think the shift to connecting the IZ to resources and infrastructure is better.

    @Sostratus Out of interest, have you had any experience using Magnus's Vertical Integration? If you're already bunching Cities together, surely that could buff production even more? Surely that would get a but funky with Japan?
     
  19. Sostratus

    Sostratus Warlord

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    Vertical integration would be a lot more powerful if coal plants didn't exist, but in R&F and now GS, I still pick up about 25-40 prod from it in most games. The british WotW gives +10 per factory, but importantly, james Watt doesn't actually boost the factory aura, only the otherwise identical local yield, which would be another big boost. Japan factories give +8 when powered. The culture is local, sadly. Gosh, for the brits... if you had Mexico city... that could be a near 100 prod!
    That's a lot of potential hammers on the table, especially if you combo with Ruhr valley.

    It actually used to be my favorite promotion. But in recent games I've been finding black marketeer more of a lifesaver for Niter!

    In fairness, if I were to show the minimaps of my empires, what I've actually done instead of build single large cities spaced out, is I have clusters of 2-4 cities tightly together, but the clusters themselves are spaced out.

    I don't actually build a carpet of cities. Unless I'm Japan. The Neo-Tokyo Megacity shall extend from sea to shining sea!

    And I'm working on an extensive update to my hansa guide, but it will contain some fairly interesting single cities getting big league yields.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2019
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  20. acluewithout

    acluewithout Warlord

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    I'll be interested to read that. You've definitely got me more interested in IZs etc than when I first saw the changes.
     

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