Are just 3 Affinities enough variety?

roidesfoux said:
So lets say that there's a person with severe psychosis. They hallucinate voices that they think are real, they sincerely believe that they are King Aurthur, they have sudden mood swings that can lead to violence or week-long catatonia, etc. Overall, they are a danger to themself and others. (Not implying that everyone with mental illness is dangerous, but in this case they are.)

You have the technology to cure their psychosis, but they think that you're a servant of Mordred, so of course they aren't going to take your pills! Would it be wrong to force treatment on them? If there was an entire society of such people, barely keeping themselves from collapsing into barbarism, wouldn't it be good to force treatment on them to protect them from each other?

Now let's say that the modifications that Supremecists make to their minds and bodies make them much more sane and stable individuals. So much so that compared to them, we look like the person in my example above. Would it be wrong for them to force enhancement on baseline humans?
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Also we don't know that they are forcing people to upgrade.. they may just be protecting people who Want to upgrade.
 
Agreed. Supremacy could just be providing the opportunity to those left behind for them to upload their minds, an option they would not otherwise have. Naturally, whatever Earth government is in place needs to circumvented, so the VC has a heavy militaristic bent to it. I don't see it necessarily being much more-or-less heavy-handed that what Purity does with their VC.

Is there any indication that the Supremacy plan is to exterminate or digitize all live on Earth? If not, why wouldn't people who were resisting be allowed to remain in place? As a parallel question, are there any indications that Purity plans to force everyone to migrate to Planet?
 
bouncymischa said:
Given that it's been revealed the Purity victory will take multiple turns (bringing refugees through the warp gate and settling them), I assume Supremacy will be the same (sending units through the gate to Earth). And given that Civ has typically not prevented different factions from pursuing their corresponding victory conditions simultaneously, this would suggest you could end up with the amusing scenario of the Purity team bringing refugees from Earth through their warp gate while the Supremacy team is sending their units through the gate to Earth at the same time.

I wonder if they'd run into each other on Earth? "Hey, I remember you guys!"
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Actually that would be fascinating.

Supremacy and Purity fighting a multi-front war on both Planet and Earth over the fate of the earthlings and themselves!
 
beetle said:
Isn’t the Supremacy VC indistinguishable from Kurzweil’s Singularity? Sure, it’s scary, but it’s easy enough to cast with a wholly positive spin...
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Well that's more like the Supremacy civilization itself. It's the part where the primitives are "forcibly enlightened" that I'm calling a little dark.

roidesfoux said:
So lets say that there's a person with severe psychosis. They hallucinate voices that they think are real, they sincerely believe that they are King Aurthur, they have sudden mood swings that can lead to violence or week-long catatonia, etc. Overall, they are a danger to themself and others. (Not implying that everyone with mental illness is dangerous, but in this case they are.)

You have the technology to cure their psychosis, but they think that you're a servant of Mordred, so of course they aren't going to take your pills! Would it be wrong to force treatment on them? If there was an entire society of such people, barely keeping themselves from collapsing into barbarism, wouldn't it be good to force treatment on them to protect them from each other?

Now let's say that the modifications that Supremecists make to their minds and bodies make them much more sane and stable individuals. So much so that compared to them, we look like the person in my example above. Would it be wrong for them to force enhancement on baseline humans?
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Nothing... from their point of view. The "insane" humans might disagree.
 
Karellen did a good job of forcing enlightenment on the Earth
 
AriochIV said:
Riiiiiight..... and Russia isn't invading Ukraine, they're just providing humanitarian assistance to the separatists... with tanks and artillery.
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"from a certain point of view"

Earth governments might react badly to someone offering their people the option to become cyborg upload..and ight attack them (think of it like the Opium War...If Britain actually took opium themselves
 
AriochIV said:
Riiiiiight..... and Russia isn't invading Ukraine, they're just providing humanitarian assistance to the separatists... with tanks and artillery.
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I do find it interesting that people are so skeptical of Supremacy. As I mentioned before, I could easily imagine the Supremacy factions opening up the warpgate, and sending through colonies back to Earth, settling into regions (like the irradiated wastelands left behind from nuclear exchanges, or areas that have become desertified, etc.) that are uninhabitable by normal humans, but would pose no major difficulties for the cyborgized Supremacy culture. While the "Emancipation" name does hold certain negative connotations, I don't really see anything inherent in the Supremacy philosophy that would mandate forcible conversion -- I can see the Supremacy colonies as being rather libertarian in their approach, willingly offering cyborg conversion to Earthlings willing to migrate to their colonies, but not forcibly conquering existing Earth governments.
 
bouncymischa said:
I do find it interesting that people are so skeptical of Supremacy. As I mentioned before, I could easily imagine the Supremacy factions opening up the warpgate, and sending through colonies back to Earth, settling into regions (like the irradiated wastelands left behind from nuclear exchanges, or areas that have become desertified, etc.) that are uninhabitable by normal humans, but would pose no major difficulties for the cyborgized Supremacy culture. While the "Emancipation" name does hold certain negative connotations, I don't really see anything inherent in the Supremacy philosophy that would mandate forcible conversion -- I can see the Supremacy colonies as being rather libertarian in their approach, willingly offering cyborg conversion to Earthlings willing to migrate to their colonies, but not forcibly conquering existing Earth governments.
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Well I think some 'active defense' of the Supremacy 'refugee camps' is assumed.
 
From the Emancipation victory entry:

"We have evolved beyond the petty squabbles which forced us to leave our world behind. It is time to turn our attentions homeward, to Earth. Not to rejoin them, but to liberate them from their trifling, unenlightened existence."

The Emancipation victory is the conversion of Earth's population to the Supremacy version of digital life -- by force. I have no problem roleplaying a point of view in which such an ambition makes sense (same as I can roleplay a conqueror out to subjugate the Earth), but let's not kid ourselves about what it is.
 
AriochIV said:
From the Emancipation victory entry:

"We have evolved beyond the petty squabbles which forced us to leave our world behind. It is time to turn our attentions homeward, to Earth. Not to rejoin them, but to liberate them from their trifling, unenlightened existence."

The Emancipation victory is the conversion of Earth's population to the Supremacy version of digital life -- by force. I have no problem roleplaying a point of view in which such an ambition makes sense (same as I can roleplay a conqueror out to subjugate the Earth), but let's not kid ourselves about what it is.
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It doesn't have to be forcing people to upgrade. You can liberate them by offering the opportunity. And if the governments of Earth react badly to their people that take such an offer, then force mat be used.

It could be considered entirely self-defense.

If you choose to look at it that way. (of course so could the Conquest victory with the right storytelling skills.)

You can also just full borg it.
 
KrikkitTwo said:
It doesn't have to be forcing people to upgrade. You can liberate them by offering the opportunity. And if the governments of Earth react badly to their people that take such an offer, then force mat be used.

It could be considered entirely self-defense.

If you choose to look at it that way. (of course so could the Conquest victory with the right storytelling skills.)

You can also just full borg it.
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One could also pretend in one's own head that the Apollo Project wonder is really building a hoax, or that a Diplomatic victory is some kind of secret Illuminati group succeeding in world domination. But I don't see what that has to do with anything.

You don't have to do the Emancipation victory just because you're Supremacy, any more than you have to raze cities and commit genocide just because you're playing Genghis Khan.
 
AriochIV said:
One could also pretend in one's own head that the Apollo Project wonder is really building a hoax, or that a Diplomatic victory is some kind of secret Illuminati group succeeding in world domination. But I don't see what that has to do with anything.

You don't have to do the Emancipation victory just because you're Supremacy, any more than you have to raze cities and commit genocide just because you're playing Genghis Khan.
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The fact is in either case you are imagining the details. And the idea that your victory is vague (you sent units to Earth so Earthlings can upload) allows that flexibility)

The Apollo Program references a historical event.*

However When Genghis Khan is sending his warplanes against communist Brazil, then you are allowed to have some degree of flexibility for the social situation.


*Emancipation is also a historical event, and in the US it did involve a large number of military units. So the name may be meant to invoke that...offering people freedom (slaves still had to work, but they were free to not work)
 
To be fair, Earth was a dystopia when the colonists left, it could easily have descended into crapsack/crapsaccharine world. That could easily justify "liberating" the people of Earth from their current governments.

Also, is noone else up for griping about how tech being the primary source of affinity points (as per the video narrated by Sid about affinities) has a 100% chance to ruin the affinity system? There will be the same optimal tech path as every other civ game: economic techs for as long as you can get away with it followed by a slingshot up the military tech lines. Therefore, playing well will force us to take the same affinity every game.
 
Magma_Dragoon said:
To be fair, Earth was a dystopia when the colonists left, it could easily have descended into crapsack/crapsaccharine world. That could easily justify "liberating" the people of Earth from their current governments.

Also, is noone else up for griping about how tech being the primary source of affinity points (as per the video narrated by Sid about affinities) has a 100% chance ruin the affinity system? There will be the same optimal tech path as every other civ game: economic techs for as long as you can get away with it followed by a slingshot up the military tech lines. Therefore, playing well will force us to take the same affinity every game.
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Look at the tech Web structure. There are no tech lines.

There are also almost no 'military' techs. (Except for some affinity leaves)

The 'military tech line' Is the affinities, the higher your affinity, the better units you have.
 
You start at one point on the tech tree and move to another, that which connects two points is by definition a line. You know how when Pac-Man dies he folds up into a line? That's what this so-called web is, a tech tree that has been stretched around a circle to create the illusion that it isn't as linear.

I recall a video where Pete said roughly "this tech lets me build a ranger". Even if most of the techs aren't purely food/science/gold/industry/military oriented, there will exist a path through the tech tree that minimizes number of turns needed to achieve a chosen victory condition.
 
Magma_Dragoon said:
To be fair, Earth was a dystopia when the colonists left, it could easily have descended into crapsack/crapsaccharine world. That could easily justify "liberating" the people of Earth from their current governments.
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Given the total lack of communication until such time that a warpgate exists between planets, how could there be _any_ awareness as to what has been happening on Earth for the last 600 years? That is, no comm, no knowledge that "Earth needs to be liberated!" Beyond that consideration, if Earth civilization has crumbled into chaos, how can the other end of the warpgate be set up? It takes Earth hands with Colony knowledge to build a warpgate at that end.
 
No news from Earth? So what? Ignorance has never hampered the zeal of fanatics who want to start a good old-fashioned crusade.
 
Okay how about sub affinities. I think that would be an awesome expansion and make for some great stuff. Oh your borg, well we're straight up AI now.
 
AriochIV said:
From the Emancipation victory entry:

"We have evolved beyond the petty squabbles which forced us to leave our world behind. It is time to turn our attentions homeward, to Earth. Not to rejoin them, but to liberate them from their trifling, unenlightened existence."

The Emancipation victory is the conversion of Earth's population to the Supremacy version of digital life -- by force. I have no problem roleplaying a point of view in which such an ambition makes sense (same as I can roleplay a conqueror out to subjugate the Earth), but let's not kid ourselves about what it is.
Click to expand...

I fail to see anything that would really suggest they would do so "by force" in that statement. The use of the term "unenlightened" even suggests they may simply choose to liberate people through education rather than force. I can still envision a Supremacy victory consisting of the Supremacy team establishing colonies in irradiated wastelands, distributing books and media about their technologies, and basically educating the citizens of Earth into voluntary conversion.

It sounds like you're reading a bit much into things. Perhaps you're more of a warmonger at heart than you think? :p
 
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