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Are people going to give VI a try?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by pholtz, Aug 29, 2016.

  1. pholtz

    pholtz King

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    Unfortunately V, especially vanilla V left something to be desired, and it always had mod problems so an official HOF mod was never made.

    Assuming they fixed the mod problems in VI and they get an HOF official mod going, are you IV players going to give VI a try?

    I used to play IV, did a bit of HOF, might have my name in a few spots still, but I moved onto V which as far as HOF was concerned didn't work out for me. I never did like the V HOF rules, and too many people gave up on V and stuck with IV. I am hoping that VI can bring the Civ community together again. I am hoping that the VI HOF tables look more like IV, or even a bit simpler, than the V version.
     
  2. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    (note there is IV discussion on going in General)

    It is interesting though to see how things turn out with VI and modding in terms of GOTMs, SGOTMS and HOF. Ofc, many here view V as an overall failure regardless, but things like GOTM and HOF just never seemed sound due to the inability to create those monitoring mods. (i think it had something to do with Firaxis not delivering the dll)

    My suspicion is nothing will change much in that regard, although I believe it is a brand new engine.

    Anyway, although there are a few things that intrigue me about VI, I certainly would not consider purchasing it until well after release and steeply discounted. Probably not at least until the first expansion comes. And only if the feedback is positive (from players I know and respect)
     
  3. pholtz

    pholtz King

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    I realize there are plenty of other discussion, I'm interested mainly in the HOF players as I hope to participate in HOF for VI.
     
  4. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    From my investigation of Civ VI, it will be a minor variation of Civ V; it might just as well have been an update of Civ V.

    Civ VI retains the 1 UPT introduced in C V that ruined practically every game sub-system. Adapting a tactical (1 UPT) map to a world-wide empire strategic/logistical resource management game was a huge mistake. Allowing the city center to grow to 12 plots and allowing 1-4 UPT in Civ VI is just window dressing of the fundamental issue with Civ V, 1 UPT.

    I played one Civ V game and disliked it so much I reverted back to Civ IV Beyond the Sword. I expect exactly the same reaction to playing Civ VI (again reverting back to BtS).
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2016
  5. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Bump.

    VI intrigued me enough to have a go. To be honest it seems like a console version of IV (less depth in tech tree and the unit restrictions) but there are some interesting bits around culture, faith, civics, districts etc. that might make it worthwhile to play if I can stop comparing it to IV :mischief:

    Anyone else diving in??
     
  6. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    The game is interesting and would for sure have a lot of potential, but unfortunately it's seriously imbalanced right now and littered with possible exploits. Jumping from IV straight to VI I would also say VI is ridiculously easy. Got a t225 science victory in my very first completed game, since I made the mistake to move down in levels to emperor. It played like noble difficulty Civ 4. I hope deity will at least provide some challenge.

    I have a Civ IV game in progress that also should end with a space victory around t225-t230, but that's with 10 years of experience and quite a bit of knowledge of all the mechanics. If I can get the same date in Civ VI playing mostly in the dark (Civ VI does a very poor job of telling you how things actually work), it shouldn't be too hard to win way before t200 once more about the game is learned.
     
  7. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    I think that game balance is going to be a big determining factor; one can feel proud of accomplishments in the Civ 4 HOF tables because the game is well balanced. It remains to be seen how many patches will be required before people feel that Civ 6 offers enough balance to be worth the effort of comparing games against one another in a competitive way.

    I play more XOTM games than I do HOF games, and I think that a Game of the Month competition can potentially be easier to make successful, as one can enforce a relatively even playing field even if a game is unbalanced as a whole by enforcing which specific Leader, Civ, map, allowed Victory Conditions, etc, are played by all competitors of a given competition. For HOF, the game itself needs good balance across of all of these factors in order for a set of tables to be meaningful. Sure, Huayna Capac is a relatively broken leader in Civ 4 BtS, and while there are certainly Leaders and/or Civs that are better for some types of Civ 4 HOF records, the HOF tables do a good job of addressing the Huayna situation and overall, I think that Civ 4 provides sufficient balance for the tables to have significant meaning and value.


    As for whether I will personally play Civ 6 depends upon whether a non-Steam version is or will be available. I am not happy with the information collection about one's computer performed by Steam, nor does the concept of needing to be online to play an offline game sit well with me, so I express my disagreement with these concepts by refusing to be a Steam user.
     
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  8. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Steam was also required to play Civ V. I purchased Civ V and didn't even know that Steam was required to play it. I agree with you, Doomstriker, about the Steam requirement. However, since I had already paid for the game, I installed Steam to play Civ V. As it turns out, you can put Steam into Off-line mode and play as many Civ V games as you want off-line. It only needs to be on-line for the initial Civ V installation, Downloadable Content, and updates.

    Regarding, Civ VI, I see that I could purchase it on Amazon at a 20% discount, since I'm an Amazon Prime member. I may just do that, knowing that I will have to deal with Steam again to get it actually installed on my laptop. I haven't made a commitment yet, but I may pay the price just to see the new Civ iteration up real close, even if that means playing only one game and going back to BtS. I will probably peruse the Civ VI forums a bit first, but I'm sure I will take the dive sooner or later, but probably for at most one of each victory type at the highest difficulty level. Then, I will almost certainly go back to BtS.

    1 UPT, even as modified to really have 3-4 units per tile and city districts to ease the traffic jams at city centers just doesn't solve the fundamental problem with 1 UPT, it's a tactical map subsystem grafted unto a strategic/logistical game that causes huge design concessions throughout all the game's subsystems.

    I do think Civ VI will be better than Civ V though. I never heard anything good about Civ V, except from people I do not know.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2016
  9. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep, Firaxis went full Steam with V and don't expect that to change. Paradox and many other publishers have as well, and really that is the future of pc gaming. Ubisoft and Bioware have there own services as well. Not trying to wear the Steam "hat" here, but I'd recommend getting accustomed to it. Having and running Steam has never been an issue for me, and I've been using it for about 9 years now. And as Wu stated, many games you can run offline, although it is nice to just keep Steam running if you want achievements and use cloud services. PC gaming will go fully digital in the near future, and we're pretty much already there. Steam has by far the best 3rd party distribution system. Also, an easy way to sync up multiplayer if that is your thing. As for the information collection, I don't really get the problem there...it's just the specs of your machine.

    edit: It should also be noted that even if games require Steam, you don't have to purchase them from Steam
     
  10. Dhoomstriker

    Dhoomstriker Girlie Builder

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    That's useful to know and is quite helpful.

    Is there also a way to disable usage statistics from being transmitted to Steam? For example, I have heard people quote that they have played Civ 5 for a certain number of hours. Is there an option for such info not to be sent to Steam?


    I have wondered about that myself, having only watched a couple of people play Civ 5 without actually trying it myself... is Civ 4 decisively the better game or is it just that people who either didn't move on to Civ 5 or didn't like Civ 5 and came back to Civ 4 are the people that we listen to and thus we get a bit of a biased percentage of people's opinions? Likely, the answer is "both."


    When you say "just keep Steam running," does Steam need to be loaded when you launch the game? Does Steam need to be open as you are playing the game?


    It really depends upon whether that information, and any personally-identifiable information that get collected along with it, gets misused, whether by Steam, by a hacker who obtains the information in their database, or by the company that eventually buys them up. Steam thinks long term; I think that's it's wise for people to do the same when giving up their personal information.


    That's a really good clarification. So, am I right in thinking that if you make a purchase of a game through Steam, you must have a credit card, Paypal account, etc tied to your Steam account? If you choose to purchase from a different retailer, you still must install Steam to play the game, right? But, if you purchase the game from another retailer, you don't need to link up payment account information to Steam, right?
     
  11. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    I just checked and don't see an option. Other than just basic game info like hrs played, as you mentioned, Steam just periodically - maybe one or twice a year - asks for info on the specs of your machine. They tell you exactly what info they get and there is absolutely no personal information. Things like memory, video card, etc. I forget at the moment, since it happens so infrequently, but you may be able to opt out of it when they prompt you, but I really see no reason to opt out.

    If, for whatever reason, you don't want folks to know the hours you have played a game, you can just keep your profile private (or semi-private so that only friends can see it). In other words, no one can see jack if your Profile is set to private. Might be a good option for you initially until you get more comfortable with Steam. Steam itself is still logging your hours played, but I'm at a loss why that would be an issue.

    As with Wu, must folks I trust here, like me, do not find V to be a very good game. IMO Civ IV is a decisively better Civilization game, and definitely more complex. It's been clearly stated, that although Civ VI seems to keep a good bit of V mechanics, the developers were trying to pull some of the good stuff from IV and other versions. Obviously, V overall was a very popular game and seemed to bring a lot more casual gamers to the genre.

    I have to admit that I have quite a few hours in V. Mainly as I pre-ordered it initially and tooled around in it back then, as well as when the expansions came out. I'll pick it up now and then for a diversion, but I basically only play it one way - a quick early war game (unfinished).

    V in a nutshell as objective as I can be. In most cases..fact

    1) Cookie-cutter strategy, i.e., basically one way to play to be successful
    2) Global happiness sucks donkey nuggets big time (VI got rid of it)
    3) Long game is not fun
    4) AI does not do well with 1UPT
    5) 1UPT can be burdensome after a while and there can be logistical map issues.
    6) Science = population (bleck!)

    Steam needs to be loaded at install for DRM, ofc. I always have it running ..heck..even when not running games, so I don't think about it much, but I have run games without it. You can load from the Steam interface or use the normal executable. Some games require it simply if it is an MP game, but some do not. Honestly, I have a feeling after a while once you get comfortable you won't be thinking about all this either. You are not the first to have reservations about using Steam or the like, but really, it is not an issue. Unless you have a Commodore 64, having Steam running is not going to hurt a thing, nor is it very resource intensive.

    Millions and millions of users around the world use Steam daily. (Although...hmmm..come to think of it, Steam could be Skynet..teehee)

    Steam stores no personal information that I'm aware of. My account basically contains no personal information. It's not unlike setting up an account here. Most Steam users are alias'. The only remotely personal thing on my Steam account currently is that I live in the United States.

    If you pay by credit card, you enter the name on card and billing address as you would for any online vendor, but, as noted below, you are not required to save that info to the account.

    Steam is pretty big on security as well, and have their own security system in place called Steam Guard. You even have to use a security code to log into your account each time. (I get mine on my mobile app, or you can use email..and note..there is persistent login, so this is not like you have to do this each time..but the safeguard is there)

    You can use Paypal, a credit card, bitcoin, and a couple of other services I"m not familiar with, but you don't have to "tie" it to your account. I don't do that with any online vendor. You can opt out of saving your payment info when you purchase something. As for Paypal, it's security enough. Steam could only know the paypal account (email). That is what Paypal is for..ha...I mean if you are afraid of Steam knowing your Paypal email, then you shouldn't use Paypal for anything. But yeah, if you use something like Paypal, then Steam would basically have no need for any personal info ever. (I use credit card myself though, and have never had an issue with Steam in 9 to 10 years)

    Additionally:

    Steam has a lot of pretty good sales, and are very competitive in that regard, but there are a lot of other vendors that sell Steam keys, or games that are married to Steam like Firaxis and Paradox Stuff. Green Man Gaming is a very good one. Cdkeys.com, I've not used myself, but they have some sick prices. GOG.com even has a relationship with Steam now, although by no means do you have to use GOG games with Steam.

    I suggest trying it out. Download Steam and set up your Dhoom account. Maybe buy a Steam game from another online vendor you are familiar with and try out a game using Steam.

    (As for V, someday you might just buy it on sale. You can get it very cheap now. It may provide some diversion for you just from the newness of it and, well, knowing you, there are still some tricks and stuff to be found within the game. Like IV, there were definitely a tier of players that mastered V like no others could do)
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2016
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  12. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    I bought a copy of Civ VI on Amazon just to see up close what its all about, after viewing several Civ VI forums. It definitely has many issues due to it being rushed out before the Christmas shopping period. I think they should have waited another month to get the major bugs fixed and fix all the Civiloepedia documentation (it still describes features that were pulled from final release; it poorly describes other features). Read the Questions and Answers thread in the Civ VI General forum; it describes the issues players have found (mainly documentation issues).

    I will set up Steam and install the standard Civ VI edition some time after I get it. I will keep Steam off-line, until I notice a free update. In my experience with Civ V, you can keep Steam off-line as long as you want. You get to choose if and when you want updates.

    If I ever want an update or DLC (downloadable content) that costs money, I will probably pay via PayPal, a good way to pay people/companies you don't trust (and with PayPal, you don't need to trust them). Bitcoin is even better to use with untrusted payers/payees, but then you are tied to the Bitcoin valuation market which fluctuates a lot.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2016
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  13. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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  14. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Superconductor Moderator

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    You forgot # 7 lymond:

    The game is BORING!! :lol:
     
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  15. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Her Lemonyness! In the HOF forum! What is this madness?! :lol: ..and what do we owe the honor?

    I'm getting old, Lemon. My memory does not serve me well :blush::smoke:
     
  16. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Presumably she tried out Civ 6, got bored, and looked around the place for a bit, even going in here ;)

    I'm also in the camp of "Never buying anything on steam". Can't stand all this DRM business and collection of user data, and it's quite frankly outlandish that we need to be online to play a single player game. Yes, there is offline mode, which works for a while, but soon enough you need to go back online for a bit (people have reported after 3 weeks earlier, though I don't know if that still applies). I also don't like having to use a client just to play my games, so they can shove that up where the sun don't shine, preferably so far up their ears bleed.

    I'm fully aware this means I can't play a great deal of new games, but if they don't want me as a customer there is little I can do about that, and quite frankly it doesn't bother me the least bit. Most new games are crap anyway, so I'm not missing out anything by not wasting money on them. Civ 5 and 6 can serve as examples.

    Thankfully there are some cracking games that have been released recently without the scourge of DRM, and even natively on Linux, such as Pillars of Eternity. Very different type of game to Civ 4 of course, but these are the two types of games I enjoy the most.
     
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  17. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Terrible games are terrible, not much more to say i fear :(
    I buy on Steam, or GoG, or anywhere with nice offers..but i am not buying silly & unfinished money grab games like VI.

    Pillars of Eternity yup, will try this soon i think.
    While also waiting for Divinity OS2, delay there.
     
  18. lucidstorm

    lucidstorm Chieftain

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    problem with the hexagons,one unit per tile and the AI unable to handle them changes since civ V, bad bad AI coding (that official reviews don;t cover), AI based on cheats only, nah I buy on offer like person above me for multi and a little eye candy to play a cultural victory for few hours and try mods by awesome people here
     
  19. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Superconductor Moderator

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    Darn. I was traveling and didn't see this until today. :D

    I make rare forays into this forum to check on BUFFY stuff. But usually, I wisely keep my mouth shut. :lol:
     

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