are siege units overpowered?

[migkillertwo]

I'm starting to think that they really are. We saw in 2K Greg's video that a trebuchet was able to wipe out almost fully healthy units. I think he was able to do that a couple times once his unit got the "logistics" promotion, which enabled him to attack twice per turn.

What do you guys think?

 

[Olleus]

That trebuchet had an almost illegal amount of experience/promotions - hard to say if you're average unit is like that or not.

 

[Diplomat32]

I'm starting to think that they really are. We saw in 2K Greg's video that a trebuchet was able to wipe out almost fully healthy units. I think he was able to do that a couple times once his unit got the "logistics" promotion, which enabled him to attack twice per turn.

What do you guys think?

Keep in mind that Greg's trebuchet had a lot of promotions. It was the special forces of trebuchets. A green ranged unit won't be as powerful. Having said that, ranged unit will definitely be important to have in any army. But I would not say that they are overpowered since they are very weak when they are attacked.

 

[Kaar]

I would say that they have their place in combat, but are not overpowered. If you watch, the only time he was wiping out units entirely was after he got the Logistics promotion, and then became able to hit the same unit wiht two shots. At that point, yeah, that trebuchet got a bit scary.

Keep in mind though, that was a VERY experienced trebuchet that had literally dozens of turns worth of experience in trouncing Frenchmen, well protected by a battleline of hardened Samurai holding the Sinai gap. As Greg had pointed out, siege weapons won't fair near as well when get get attacked directly. The only reason that didn't become as apparent is because Greg tried to take on 20th century-era Artillery with Samurai.

 

[Zhahz]

The only time he 1-shot a unit he made a point of saying it was a highly outdated unit. Greg's units were getting mauled by Frances superior siege too.

Hard to say if siege is overpowered til we play. I think it's safe to say that siege and range will be a big part of strategic combat. I think it'll be a good thing. Without it, the 1UPT combat could be highly gridlocked. Siege will pretty much force decision making and action.

 

[Meatbucket]

Perhaps range should get less xp per battle. As it is less likely to be threatened, less likely to heal and more likely to attack more frequently.

That was one trebuchet, imagine if he had build 3 of them!

 

[Haig]

I don't want to make a new topic for this, so I'm asking is there a way to see that Greg's livefeed video of gameplay somewhere? I missed the broadcast but I'm very interested in it..

 

[Dark_Jedi06]

His trebuchet had over 130 experience I believe and was absurdly promoted...that and they get slaughtered when attacked (Greg's Medieval era units did sizeable damage to one of Nappy's artillery, and they we're attacking across a river).

 

[Disgustipated]

I don't want to make a new topic for this, so I'm asking is there a way to see that Greg's livefeed video of gameplay somewhere? I missed the broadcast but I'm very interested in it..

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9553042

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9553920

 

[obsolete]

What do you guys think?

I think if you didn't think they were over-powered, you'd be complaining in this post that you thought they were under-powered.

 

[Polobo]

Perhaps range should get less xp per battle. As it is less likely to be threatened, less likely to heal and more likely to attack more frequently.

That was one trebuchet, imagine if he had build 3 of them!

He was out of iron and couldn't build any more...which is a major limiting factor for < Renaissance siege (not sure whether laters ones have this limitation).

He had very few archers/crossbow which would supplement the siege weapons and are resourceless in that period.

And yes, he had 3 strength promotions and then got the logistics promotion so that is four promotions to have a decent chance to take out an enemy. Also, you only get two shots IF you setup the prior turn and so after setting up and before firing you are exposed to an attack and could be killed without getting any shots off (maybe one if you didn't move the prior turn but just setup and fired).

 

[Modiga-Disabled]

I think a large aspect of civ V's combat will be based on manoeuvrability. Attacking head on at a choke point is going to go badly unless you bring a sizeable force. The trick will be to probe for weakness in their defences.

 

[IdleEnergy]

Yeah, what Modiga-Disabled said. Attacking head-on through a choke point is generally going to go badly. Remember: once you've beaten their army in the field, you still need to be able to take the city itself. This is going to make combat not only more tactical, but also also require greater strategic thinking as well.

 

[hideousmonkey]

I don't think it's overpowered for the Siege units to be very effective as the deadly nouget center inside a protective shell of melee units. A setup like that would be very immobile however, so there are certainly ways around it.

Plus if Greg had a Samurai with 130 xp instead we'd likely be having discussions about how overpowered Melee Units are.

 

[Dunkah]

I would say that Greg was doing a great job defending that pass despite the fact Nappy was way ahead of him tech wise. So War machines can be VERY powerful given certain circumstances. I think he could have defended indefinately especially due to the Fort thingy he built.

However as soon as Nappy got the Artillery with 3 hex range units Greg was doomed.

Seems that Nap should have built some archers put them near the sea and sent units accross to outflank Japan. Is this an AI blunder?

 

[hideousmonkey]

@Dunkah

It has to be a blunder, Napolean could have dumped 5 or 6 troops in the southern part of Africa any time he wanted, as Greg had no ships.

I think the siege engines will just create a tactical shift, not something game breaking.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Seems that Nap should have built some archers put them near the sea and sent units accross to outflank Japan. Is this an AI blunder?

I think Nap just didn't want to focus that much on the war. Remember - he crashed Siam in one turn without stopping his push on Greg.

 

[stealth_nsk]

It has to be a blunder, Napolean could have dumped 5 or 6 troops in the southern part of Africa any time he wanted, as Greg had no ships.

Funny thing is what Nap seem to actually defend here, not actively attack.

 

[Madprofe55or]

Siege units, even in history, were always meant to be very powerful. And they will be in Civ5, but no one in their right mind would spam siege engines in the game, because they take up resources. Resources that should be used on strong melee support like swordies and riders.

 

[hideousmonkey]

Funny thing is what Nap seem to actually defend here, not actively attack.

I know, how out of character for Mr. Bonaparte. I would have hoped that the AI would be a bit more aggressive, especially since Greg was on Immortal.