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Are Spies Actually That Useful

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by InsidiousMage, Apr 1, 2021.

?

Are Spies Useful?

  1. Yes

    47 vote(s)
    49.0%
  2. No

    12 vote(s)
    12.5%
  3. Sometimes

    37 vote(s)
    38.5%
  1. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    I can't speak for other posters, but I know that I posted about gold from spies and the only point I was trying to make was that I believed I'd get more gold from running siphon funds than I would from running Triangular Trade. Maybe others said that it gave you extra gold, but I don't recall seeing that.

    I'd say this applies to Steal Technology missions too - there's a lot of people in this thread talking about how they're never behind in tech anyways, but in my games on Deity it's very rare for me to have a tech lead. Coupled with Nuclear Espionage I can make up a lot of ground in the tech tree using my spies.
     
  2. Mahi

    Mahi Prince

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    I'm actually surprised so many outright denies usefulness of spies. What game are they playing?

    I would urge you to actually play a game with spy focus before you say it's not worth the effort. I admit I'm a bit biased since I use spies alot in all my games but I would argue the nay sayers are just as biased.

    Spies are production cost heavy? Really? And CH + trader aren't or what?? You save a district as well.
     
    AsH2, Victoria and canadamufc like this.
  3. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    I'm specifically referring to a back of the envelope argument in the elimination thread claiming that "Machiavellianism gives extra gold". Spies do when you run siphon funds mission, but Machiavellianism doesn't give extra gold. If you run siphon funds faster you get less gold.
     
  4. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    Maybe people have actually done that and not found it worth the effort? Like, spies don't win the game and, while I generally think speed running is dumb, the late and end game of Cvi6 is not good so I'm not terribly interested in a playstyle that will prolong the game.
     
    João III likes this.
  5. Francel

    Francel Madam Secretary

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    I happily admit I am still learning new things, so thanks for correcting me. Still, I find it odd that’s how it works. Good to know.
     
  6. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    It kinda make sense if all you can siphon is GPT of a city. do it in 2 turns you get GPT x2, do it in 8 turns you get GPT x8.

    Speaking of spies. The possibility of funds being siphoned is one of the reasons I don't do the so called Harbor-CH-City Center triangles (another reason is that it's just inefficient). If I can make a harbor the the city is likely to have sea trade routes and higher GPT. By not having a CH you eliminated the possibility of funds being siphoned. (Similarly many just don't bother with neighborhoods since rebels are annoying.)
     
  7. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I try to make the triangle then put all my TRs from there, to funnel all the bad guys the same place where my counterspy is waiting.
     
  8. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

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    Well, districts and traders don't have a chance of failure while they're in use, and usually don't get themselves killed :p
     
    Pietato and hhhhhh like this.
  9. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I think spies would be more useful for religion if they had a mission choice in a foreign cities Holy Site.

    That being said I find them useful sometimes, especially when it comes to counterspying. Wrecking havoc in an enemy spaceport or industrial zone is useful too when someone gets too close to a science victory.
     
  10. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    If you keep up with amenities it's not that bad. I play on emperor with tons of neighborhoods and keep up my amenities and I can't honestly remember the last time I had to deal with rebels.

    Having one with Reyna in the city is actually a really great way to capture enemy spies.
     
  11. bengalryan9

    bengalryan9 King

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    My traders die a heck of a lot more than my spies do - all it takes are some barbarians to spawn in the wrong place, an AI to lose a city due to loyalty, a declaration of war, or someone to recruit partisans and *poof*, there go my traders. AI units seem to prioritize pillaging them over all else, too.

    I think he's referring to Recruit Partisans missions, not anything having to do with amenities.
     
    Old Victoria and canadamufc like this.
  12. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    Partisans, couldn't remember the word. Maybe I'm misremembering or drawing an incorrect conclusion but I've noticed that I have a better success rate on the Recruit Partisans mission when the AI has fewer luxuries, Entertainment Complexes, and Water Parks. Like I said, I play on Emperor and can't remember the last time it was a real issue for me either way.
     
  13. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

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    Fair enough :p My traders pretty much never die; I tend to field a lot of military units for cleaning up anything on the map, on top of running mostly domestic trade routes.
     
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  14. aieeegrunt

    aieeegrunt Prince

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    Gold is so easy to get in this game that I literally never use international trade routes unless I really need an envoy or something.

    The food and production bonus from internal trade to the right city with Magnus can dramatically bootstrap new cities, and you then run Caravans/Triangular trade and get gold as well
     
    CoconutTank and João III like this.
  15. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Oh that's kinda stupid.

    This means the card actually makes Siphon Funds worse, because the additional missions needed to steal the same gold over time gives you more chance of getting caught. (2 missions at 90% have a 19% chance of failing, and 3 missions at 90% have a 27% chance of failing) Though getting gold several turns faster is still better, it's unlikely the difference is big.

    I guess I was unintentionally right to use other missions!

    Yea, taking that risk to get another .... 10-15 gold? maybe 25 with Reyna for all that production wasted. I may do it in the Oracle City still; easy to counterspy. Though the AI is usually only focusing on spying your capital.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  16. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    Not necessarily. One advantage of Machiavellianism is that your spies upgrade faster. This is kinda important but many ignored this in the elimination thread.

    Speaking of this, how is the random roll work for spy missions. @Victoria do you know anything about this? Sometimes I feel like those 90% missions are always successful.
     
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  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It is more complex than this. As well as the 90% success you have a chance of being caught. So while the mission was ‘successful’ your spy got caught or killed while trying to flee. Exactly how that flee roll is done is beyond my testing. It would take too many trial missions. Your chance is below 90%.
     
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  18. RealHuhn

    RealHuhn Emperor

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    Honestly, spies are nice to have but completely inconsequential for actually winning the game except for the guy who protects the Pingala city. If I would skip them entirely I could probably win a few turns faster actually (but I don't because I like stealing things) xD
     
  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    exactly, the difference between having Geneva and not having it is more than 15%
    If you think Hong Kong does not speed up a SV you are on another planet
    Who in gods name would turn down Suze of Akkad and Kabul for a military victory
    And Yerevan is just ...
    Sure you can say you get them but not every game.
     
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  20. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I love money, therefore I love spies.

    That's my main purpose. Useful for having gold to keep your military up to date. Though you can argue in a peaceful game that really isn't necessary. I've won games with archers still out and about.

    And I do like fabricate scandal as mentioned above. The AI just seems to dump envoys into the good city states (one thing they aren't so dumb at), and while I often do get Amani's last promotion, that takes a while in games if I have secret societies activated. A lot of city states bonuses don't mean much to me, but there's a good 5 at least which are pretty damn useful.

    Blowing up spaceports. I haven't needed to use them on emperor and below. Even my current Immortal game I don't anticipate having to do it, but I may. It's good to be prepared at the very least.

    Defensively is probably the most important use for me. I get annoyed having my spaceport blown up. Which is my go to victory method most of the time. Of course, my last game my spy failed to protect my spaceport. grrrr.
     

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