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Are Spies Actually That Useful

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by InsidiousMage, Apr 1, 2021.

?

Are Spies Useful?

  1. Yes

    47 vote(s)
    49.0%
  2. No

    12 vote(s)
    12.5%
  3. Sometimes

    37 vote(s)
    38.5%
  1. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    You don't need spies to get all of that though. Spies don't give you more science if you are ahead in techs. Buying great works us a lot easier than stealing them. There are a billion and one ways to get money. +6 combat strength isn't really a lot. It's not that hard to maintain suzerainty if you really want to.
     
  2. CoconutTank

    CoconutTank Unapologetic Warmonger Supporter

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    Iunno, personally I think +6 strength is pretty good. Assuming Hans' damage formula is still accurate for Civ 6, having 6 more strength means dealing ~27% more damage. That will add up over multiple units.

    Edit: I guess that's the other thing to consider; +6 strength isn't like, going from a regular unit to a corp, but it's applied across all of one's military forces (against a specific civ), and getting a strength bonus with that kind of coverage isn't easy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  3. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I just explained they did via suze.
    +16 is a lot better than +10, which is the real point here amd also helps vs Lautro etc.
    As I said, not every game
    Look, you do not need them, but they are useful to me and to plenty of other players here amd do speed up victories. You can split hairs on it but bottom line is neither of us is likely to change position. We both enjoy our games I would hope.
     
  4. Melliores

    Melliores Warlord

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    Depending on which Civilization you have in your game it can be quite the task to remain Suzerain of the key City-States you want. Especially if you have Pericles there. Spies help even out any additional elements that might be present in your game and are a versatile tool to help you achieve your type of victory.

    The +6 combat strength can help you speed your conquest and save a few units in the process. It will also protect you ranged units better from any city ranged attacks.

    Gold is a general currency that can be used for a lot of things. You wrote that you do not use it to buy out Great People but the option is there. You can also use it in trades with the AI (you can not use your Faith here) and get Diplomatic Favour, strategic resources, great works and more. It is always better to have some spare to speed up a key part of your strategy, usually getting a key Great person.

    As Victoria pointed out, if a spy helps you get a Suzerainty over a key City state that boosts your science, the spy can help you quite a lot.

    The options are there if you want to make the extra effort and use them. Nobody is pushing you to do so, there are just a nice addition to the late game.
     
  5. Deadly Dog

    Deadly Dog Prince

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    Am I the only one that steals tech? I don't do it often,and it's a hard mission to succeed at unless you invest in getting promoted spies early. But there's games where I find myself successfully beelining things like Conservation way ahead of the AI, but also way behind on the boosts for teching up to Flight. Spy time!
     
  6. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    It's all cool. It's just that sweeping statements (x is mandatory, x is useless) have flaws.

    But no doubt omitting things entirely from your game is not good.
     
  7. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    It depends a lot on difficulty, I suppose. On lower difficulties, AI is poor and has little money available to steal, player usually has tech advantage, so there are no techs to steal, AI do not get crazy hordes of envoys, so it is easy to maintain Suzerainty, and spies can be rather unemployed. But on Deity AI are much richer, much more advanced in tech and have a lot of envoys to compete hard for City States, so spies can do all kinds of useful missions. I certainly steal a few techs when my spies level up enough.

    In elimination games the rules say: "Game and map settings are left at default, NFP games modes are disabled", meaning small continents map on Prince difficulty. Under those settings I agree, spies can be left unboxed and forgotten. However everybody tends to vote based on their most usual difficulty and settings, so there are very different perspectives and experiences.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
  8. canadamufc

    canadamufc Chieftain

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    About stealing tech, sometimes in my games the AI will be on the opposite side of the tech tree from me. For example, when I do Science Victories, I usually stay on the upper half for a bee-line to Rocketry and Satellites, so while I'm there another AI might be nearing Nanotechnology (especially because in my experience, the AI likes to ignore Rocketry). When that happens, I think it's pretty reasonable to steal tech so I can swing down to Nanotechnology faster once Satellites is picked up.

    Personally, Stealing Tech is the second best spy mission (although still quite far behind Siphon Funds imo).
     
    Socrates99 likes this.
  9. Pietato

    Pietato Platonic Perfection

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    I think spies are weak due to the alliance change, BUT +6 combat strength is a lot.
     
  10. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    It took way too long for someone to bring up beelining the tech tree.

    If you have no eurekas to steal you're doing science wrong.
     
    canadamufc likes this.
  11. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    +12 for Mongolians :yumyum:
     
  12. jasper

    jasper Warlord

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    Yea spies are great in prince games.

    They control city states and Suzy bonues by allowing the possiblity to control way more than just cs points will allow.

    Steal money. The point here is can spy naysayers say they have enough money without spies to stay maxed and current on buildings and units at all times? In other words do they actually and literally have nothing to spend an extra gp on? Or is it the case that they make so much money "its close enough"? So long as its close enough then spies are useful and can shorten game. Would people not max out in trade routes so long as they had potential purchases available? Only if being lazy.
     
  13. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    A question to those who know the spying mechanics better. In the below example my spy got credited with stopping a tech steal attempt. The spy already had three promotions, including Quartermaster and Surveillance, but he was posted in the capital's IZ, 2 tiles West of the capital. Capital's Observatory is 2 tiles SE, well outside the spy's 2-tile protection radius. Yet he was recalled from the IZ for new orders after the successful counterspying. How?

     
  14. hhhhhh

    hhhhhh Prince

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    If he caught a spy then it's considered mission complete. You can assign him to another job (or the same job). There is a mod for "renew counterspy automatically" but I'm not sure if it will renew in this case.
     
  15. TreVor_ish

    TreVor_ish Warlord

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    Yeah, it's a real bummer. If a spy is gonna catch another spy it will be recalled for new mission - worst case scenario, there is another spy from different player that will now (within same turn) not have a counterspy as an obstacle and might succeed (happened to me more than once).
    EDIT:
    It doesn't matter if it's fully promoted. (i guess that was Your initial question)
     
    Deadly Dog likes this.
  16. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    Same here.
     
  17. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    No, no, my question was: how the spy stopped an enemy spy in the Observatory, when this spy of mine was posted in the IZ, and the Observatory was very much outside his area of protection?
     
  18. InsidiousMage

    InsidiousMage Prince

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    What promotions do they have? One allows you counterspy all districts in the city.
     
  19. TreVor_ish

    TreVor_ish Warlord

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    Surveillance Promotion on Spy
     
  20. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    OMG, only now I've read more carefully what Surveillance effects were - all districts. I was somehow under impression that it only extended by 1 hex, to protect everything within 2 hexes :crazyeye:
    Nevermind, case closed :)
     
    Deadly Dog likes this.

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