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Are spies overpowered?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Tech Osen, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    In the hands of a human player vs the AI that is?

    I just played a game where I had a crap starting spot but went on with it anyway, being very much behind in production, science and culture. Once again I started checking the victory screen too late and by the time I did I noticed China was two modules away from a science victory. I hadn't even researched let alone build a spaceport...
    I had one spy at the time and China had 3 spaceports. Long story short: I pumped out enough spies to cover them all, kept all three cities in disarray with sabotage and rebels and won out a science victory in the end. Not one spy killed or captured, 2 or 3 times caught but escaped.
    Is this another tactic that the AI can't defend against?
     
  2. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    I've never tried it, but I've read on here that this is a problem. But I also thought I had read that some patch was supposed to have fixed the issue of the AI not repairing sabotaged districts? Do I remember wrongly?

    Other than the tactic you described, the answer is 'no', though. I often find the AI using spies against me more efficiently than I do against it...
     
  3. The Islander

    The Islander Chieftain

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    I've never had a spy escape!
     
  4. Rosty K

    Rosty K King

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    I wouldn't say spies are OP, but certain missions (namely sabotage production and the spaceport one) might be. I mean, the tank army with artillery support can't pillage the district with all of its buildings at once, but one spy just goes 'poof'... :D
     
  5. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I suspect they have gone the other way with spies, I played a few French games and they rock
     
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  6. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    He did repair both the spaceport and the IZ a couple of times. But there is no way to outrepair a spy that can sabotage it again in 6 or even 4 turns with the right cards and promotions.
    But I'm pretty sure he never tried counterintelligence. Nor did any of the three remaining civs try to sabotage my spaceport.
     
  7. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    Oh, right. Well, sounds like something that should be fixed.
     
  8. drubell

    drubell Prince

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    Well in concept the idea isn't OP because realistically, the only other option to prevent a space victory would be a military option. Your spies were doing the proper counter outside of a war.

    But yeah from reading your situation it looks like the AI chose not to counterspy when they clearly should have been and any human player would counterspy in those cities.
     
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  9. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    Sometimes it feels like the AI is choking. That it doesn't know how to handle certain situations and just does nothing. Like ships and embarked units not moving after being attacked by a privateer/submarine.
     
  10. unpossible251

    unpossible251 Warlord

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    Is there any way to be sure if your spies die from mission-fail, or as a result of counterspies? I often notice that enemy spies die in my CZ's from plain old failure, but sometimes i'll be counterspying the zone and kill the spy in the same style. D'oh! really wanted the promotion.
     
  11. KingCheops

    KingCheops Chieftain

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    It's overpowered against the AI because it is a very complex part of the game. Whenever my buddy and I get around to next playing our MP game I am looking forward to roasting him with spies. There are a few reasons why they are good and they are often reasons that people overlook due to not planning ahead.

    The main culprit is that they only defend against attacks directed at the chosen districts and the neighboring districts. The AI really tends to scatter their districts because I suspect it tries to maximize adjacency bonus as it builds them. This is similar to how most human players operate too. When you place that first disctrict in the ancient/classical era you place it with maximum adjacency bonus. Same with the second. Usually the third ends up adjacent to one or another due to space and you'll likely have one or two close to your city center. But you end up scattershot and 1 spy cannot protect everything in your city. I suspect you have a spy guarding your city center and commercial hub? Okay I task him to your neighborhood way over there giving you +5 housing -- have fun with those mech infantry.

    Another problem is that there is so much to cover. Sure building tons of campuses may help you get the science victory earlier it also makes you very vulnerable. You may have the science to get a tech every 5 turns to my 10 but I steal a tech every 2 (MP) or 4 (SP) turns and boosted research every 5 turns. Let's say I have 3 spies attacking you and the missions I'm running have 5 targets -- which ones do you cover and with how many spies? It's why I've really switched over to Harbor based economies -- build along a hilly coast and laugh. They seriously need a naval espionage mission.

    In the meantime while I'm destroying the computer or an unknowing player my spies are getting stronger and harder to stop.

    Whatever expansion they do that fixes/expands diplomacy had better include an expansion to Espionage -- why are spies so strong and no Scotland Yard or Intelligence Agency in the game! GRRR!!!
     
  12. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    Actually, I usually forgo the adjacency bonuses and huddle up my main districts (IZ, campus, CH) around the city center to counter espionage from the get go. I just really, really hate sabotage. :nono: Never had the AI target my neighborhoods so not too bothered with those.
     
  13. Rosty K

    Rosty K King

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    There is that policy card, though it comes pretty late.
     
  14. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I understand it's a popular feature, but personally I've never really enjoyed the spy game--like at all.
     
  15. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    My spies never do anything. 50% seems to translate to never.
     
  16. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    Just like other aspects of the game, like production and economy, espionage starts to shine when you use the right cards. Also, do the gather resources mission before you do anything else. Then do the mission with the highest succes percentage to get your spy promoted and you'll reach the 90% (appears to be cap) pretty fast.
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Spies shine on level increase and be Yong a few levels make little difference bar escape or counterspy.
     
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  18. Tuvok694

    Tuvok694 Warlord

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    Are spies overpowered?
    I think that "recruit partisans" action is very overpowered.
    1) Whenever I build a neighborhood, there will ALWAYS be such an operation against me, even if I put one of my own spies on the neighborhood.
    2) The partisan units mostly are some upgrades above the units I can use to defend against them. For example, tanks against crossbowmen.
    3) The partisan units will sometimes pillage trade routes, but more often they will destroy my districts, lots of districts with lots of buildings. Repairing those districts mostly takes me dozens of turns, the affected cities lose so many yields, I think this is just overpowered.
    Suggestions: Weaker partisan units or at least LESS partisan units OR at least let counter espionage be not completely worthless.
     
  19. Phoenix1595

    Phoenix1595 Lord of the Two Lands

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    It was awhile ago, but I remember @Victoria posting some stats on spy leveling and effectiveness, and I took her info to heart. It really changed my outlook on the spy game as I found a good strategy to quickly and successfully promote my spies in order to have an effective and fun intelligence network.

    I found that espionage was the one system that appears seemingly simple, but has a very steep learning curve. Once understood, it became increasingly fun to play.
     
  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Look at the date on this thread @Phoenix1595 .. it is a necro, revived by @Tuvok694 for some reason.
    Everything looks simple. Just created a LOS guide, testing confused the hell out of me. Nothing in this game is simple.
     
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