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Are the three ideologies a little too simplistic?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Clement, Jul 23, 2013.

  1. Clement

    Clement Layman

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    It seems to me Freedom could be split into socialism and corporatism/neo-liberalism, lets be honest, that political divide is there and it's massive, and whatever you think of socialism it isn't communism.
     
  2. VainoValkea

    VainoValkea Emperor

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    I don't see any point in splitting them up before the devs can make the existing three balanced.
     
  3. newarkinvaders

    newarkinvaders Chieftain

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    Depending on what tennets you choose freedom could be very different from one game to the next . In very few cases will you come close to filling your tennents . So the idea of freedom is available in many flavours already .
     
  4. Securion

    Securion Civ Veteran

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    Socialism is the opposite of freedom. The state run things in a socialist society, there is very little freedom.
     
  5. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

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    I think the three ideologies in the game are well picked, but not well developed. I would like to see more uniqueness in what they deliver. Autocracy should make warmongering easier and Freedom should make warmongering more difficult IMHO. I would like to see a downside to each of the ideologies. The downside should be out shined by the upside of course, but there should be a clear decision in which ideology to take making the late game play out completely different depending on the choice you make.

    Freedom could have increased war weariness (unhappiness if you are at war) and increased warmonger penalties in diplomacy offset by an increase in research.

    Order could have a food penalty which would limit growth offset by an increase in productivity.

    Autocracy could have decreased military maintenance and offer happiness if you are at war offset by reduced gold or perhaps tourism penalties.
     
  6. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    Socialism = state ownership of the means of production. Outside of that there is, at least in theory, unlimited room for 'freedom'. France, for example, has many socialist elements (as does the US), yet both can make fair claims at being 'free' societies.
     
  7. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    The game needs war-weariness full-stop....
     
  8. Cía

    Cía Warlord

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    wrong. socialism is freedom for all, liberlism (which the freedom ideology is representing) is freedom for the rich.

    I agree with OP that this is a very narrow representation, and to name the socialist ideology order is an insult really. But if I were to point out all these kind of wrongs in the game, I mean, tere are alot of them. Religion is one example, how u make up your own religion goes against everything what a religion stand for. But, it makes a good gameconcept.

    In the end, civilzation is a game where u seek to win the game by conquering the world (in one way or another), and as a socialist that whole idea is disgusting. But, the game is fun, and a game is a game. But the game reflects much of the political-liberal view of the world and the history.
     
  9. Wuddel

    Wuddel Warlord

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    Let's talk about politics on internet forums! That's a good idea. What could possibly go wrong?

    Of course they are simplistic. Its a videogame! A strategy level on top of that. Everything is a rough top level representation of everything!

    Gameplay-wise I would advise against anything that disadvantages you by the AI simply DoW you. That feels "gamey". You should actually need to loose the war in a way. Also people do not like negative effects. That always does not feel right. Only positive (smaller) effects is the way to go.
     
  10. Nickel_lion

    Nickel_lion Warlord

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    THIS, people, This...
     
  11. bison21

    bison21 Warlord

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    /thread

    /thread²
     
  12. Tiggurix

    Tiggurix Warlord

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    That may be what they teach in Yankee land... Socialism supports freedom. It has from the very start. By putting the power over their resources and their health in the hands of the people, socialist policies wrest power from the elite and grants the low and middle class freedom to choose how their lives should be, instead of being dominated by a rich upper class. The only people who may suffer from socialist policies are, in fact, those in power, and that is a large part of why socialism is being repressed in many parts of the world.
     
  13. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    The ideologies are not too simplistic... Because when you 'finish, an ideology (level 3 tenet)... You can have an entirely different set than another of the same ideology. ( ie you can have libertarian or welfare state freedom)
     
  14. Merciorum

    Merciorum Prince

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    Let's not have a political debate. I imagine the OP was referring to social democracy, like we have here in Europe.

    Anyway, as others have pointed out, ideologies vary massively depending upon what tenets you choose. It's basically between "democracy", "left-wing dictatorship" and "right-wing dictatorship", with the individual character dependent upon the tenets chosen.
     
  15. _invy_

    _invy_ Warlord

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    Socialism and Communism are supposed to be good systems in theory but people in power are easily corrupted and then they ruin everything. Democratic governments (and Capitalism) are not that much better since again rich people control all the power, and they are easily corrupted - they also spread corruption with their money (money and power....), and freedom is illusion mostly, you think you are free but well you are not actually - and privacy is becoming nonexistent bla bla. Not worth deeper discussion, life is too short, play civ :).

    Anyway, gamewise these three ideologies are just fine, there can be customized through tenets, and they are important in game and fun to play with.
     
  16. A Rabid Dopsis

    A Rabid Dopsis Warlord

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    Ok guys we've solved politics. I didn't think we could do it but you pulled through. We'll just consider the thread closed then?




    Please?
     
  17. Clement

    Clement Layman

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    What i was trying to say is that you have three basic ideologies represented, order or communism, autocracy or fascism, and "freedom" which in the current world still has two remaining ideologies battling it out, in simplistic terms they are neo-liberalism/corporatism and socialism, all i'm saying is socialism doesn't seem to be represented as far as i can see because it isn't communism.
     
  18. digrosz

    digrosz Dirty Frank

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    i find the three ideologies just fine; they illustrate the three major ideologies there were at times of WWI/WWII.
    Splitting freedom up would just make it a mess.
     
  19. Bagi

    Bagi Warlord

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    Always easy to spot the Americans when the topic is socialism...

    Anyway, from a pure gameplay perspective I think a 3 ideology system is perfect since it creates a nice 3-way split to the world where alliances can form, 4 ideologies would make it overly cluttered. Also I don't see how the ideologies you suggest are really at odds at each other, maybe you could make them sub-sections for freedom but that would also make things too convoluted.
     
  20. Azradun

    Azradun Chieftain

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    Well, why did the workers (Solidarity) protest against socialism in my country (Poland) in 1980s? And why the socialist government imposed martial law to stop these protests? I'm 33, I remember obligatory participation in 1st May parades and empty shelves in shops. This was ALL socialism.
     

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