Are there any free Islamic states?

[Keirador]

It seems like every state with a clear Muslim majority is governed by a theocracy, whether it be a relatively progressive, almost liberal traditional monarchy like that of Qatar, or a heavy-handed autocratic theocracy like that of Iran. Is this true? Are there nations where a majority of the population is Muslim, and the government is secular or free?

 

[amadeus]

Somalia is, but that's because of the lack of government, not the government's willingness to allow their people freedom.

I guess Turkey is, at least only if you're a Turk.

 

[ainwood]

Turkey is probably the best example. Indonesia might be borderline on the 'free' part.

 

[Gr3yL3gion]

Well, Malaysia is Muslim majority, but definately not a theocratic government.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

Turkey is secular, or at least was until the last elections. As of right now, it is a secular state governed by a religious party -- perhaps comprable to the United States, although the Republicans aren't quite as drastic as the ruling party in Turkey.

It used to be that everytime an Islamicist was elected in Turkey, the military would overthrow him and restore secularism. Now they've stopped doing that because of EU pressure, and it's unclear whether secularism will continue.

 

[amadeus]

Malaysia is certainly not free, though.

 

[blindside]

Pakistan used to be a democracy but since has been taken over by a military dictator whos the furtherest thing from a theocrat. Bangladesh is a democracy and I believe Indonesia is one as well. These three countries probably have more Muslims than all of the Arab world. Its amazing how people forget that not all Muslims are Arabs, in fact most aren't. Syria is not an Islamic theocracy but it is authoritarian. Turkey is democratic.

From the other thread.

I believe Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco are all democracies to some degree or another. Morocco still has a king and Tunisia is mainly dominated by one party, nevertheless they aren't theocracies.

 

[Gr3yL3gion]

Malaysia is certainly not free, though.

Well, I'm living in Malaysia right now. Regardless what "free" really means, at least I'm free enough to practice what I believe in...

 

[Meleager]

Indonesia is a democracy... It is primarily musilim but it also has some chirstians. And I belive the state is suppose to be secular (could be wrong though).

 

[Keirador]

Indonesia had it's first free elections in 1999, and that was just for local parliamentary positions. Indonesia had what is claimed to be it's first free election for president in 2004. I'd sort of like to wait and see what happens there, especially seeing as even the current "free" government is transparently lax about prosecuting or preventing frequent violent eruptions against Christians or the Chinese minority which dominates trade.

 

[Keirador]

I believe Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco are all democracies to some degree or another. Morocco still has a king and Tunisia is mainly dominated by one party, nevertheless they aren't theocracies.

You think of Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco as free? It's debatable to what extent they are theocracies, but I didn't expect anyone to claim they were free. I would consider all three countries at least in part a theocracy in that their civil law is based on the Sharia.

 

[Meleager]

Indonesia had it's first free elections in 1999, and that was just for local parliamentary positions. Indonesia had what is claimed to be it's first free election for president in 2004. I'd sort of like to wait and see what happens there, especially seeing as even the current "free" government is transparently lax about prosecuting or preventing frequent violent eruptions against Christians or the Chinese minority which dominates trade.

They changed goverments then, the old one was actually kicked because of their lack of vigor in hunting down terrorists. We wount really know what the new goverment is like till they are put to the test though.

 

[Riesstiu IV]

My family lived and worked overseas in Indonesia when we were kids, but you'll find that the Islam practiced in Indonesia is radically different from the Middle East. In fact so different that some clerics in Saudi Arabia don’t even consider Indonesians practitioners of Islam. They actually incorporate Hindu and Buddhist thought into their brand and are mostly laid back when it comes to religion. So it’s not to surprising that in Indonesia religion rarely mixes with politics.

 

[wit>trope]

Well, Malaysia is Muslim majority, but definately not a theocratic government.

Malaysia is highly theocratic. Maybe not as much as Iran is, but still very much so. Malaysia's OFFICIAL RELIGION is Islam. Conversion from Islam to another religion is in practice not permitted. This is from the United States Department of State:

Restrictions on Religious Freedom

In practice Muslims are not permitted to convert to another religion. In several recent rulings, secular courts have ceded jurisdiction to the Islamic courts in matters involving conversion to or from Islam. In 2001, a High Court judge rejected the application of a woman who converted to Christianity and requested that the term "Islam" be removed from her identity card. The judge held that the Islamic court had jurisdiction in the application. In 2000, an Islamic court sentenced four persons to 3-year prison terms for not recanting their alleged heretical beliefs and "return[ing] to the true teachings of Islam." The court rejected their argument that they were not subject to Islamic (Shari'a) law because they had ceased to be Muslims. Dismissing their appeal, the Court of Appeal ruled in 2002 that only the Islamic court is qualified to determine whether a Muslim has become an apostate. The case is pending a final decision in the Federal Court.

If you're not allowed to convert from Islam to another religion (in practice), then that sounds to me like you live in a theocratic state. Wikipedia says the same thing:

Conversion from Islam

Muslims who wish to convert from Islam face severe obstacles. For Muslims, particularly ethnic Malays, the right to leave the Islamic faith and adhere to another religion is a controversial question, and in practice it is very difficult for Muslims to change religions. The legal process of conversion is unclear; in practice it is very difficult for Muslims to change their religion legally.

In 1999 the High Court ruled that secular courts have no jurisdiction to hear applications by Muslims to change religions. According to the ruling, the religious conversion of Muslims lies solely within the jurisdiction of Islamic courts.

In April 2001, a High Court judge rejected the application of a Malay woman who argued that she had converted to Christianity, and requested that the term "Islam" be removed from her identity card. The judge ruled that an ethnic Malay is defined by the federal Constitution as "a person who professes the religion of Islam." The judge also reaffirmed the 1999 High Court ruling and stated that only an Islamic court has jurisdiction to rule on the woman’s supposed renunciation of Islam and conversion to Christianity.

These ruling makes conversion of Muslims nearly impossible in practice.

The issue of Muslim apostasy is very sensitive. In 1998 after a controversial incident of attempted conversion, the Government stated that apostates (i.e., Muslims who wish to leave or have left Islam for another religion) would not face government punishment so long as they did not defame Islam after their conversion. However, whether the very act of conversion was an "insult to Islam" was not clarified at the time. The Government opposes what it considers deviant interpretations of Islam, maintaining that the "deviant" groups’ extreme views endanger national security. In the past, the Government imposed restrictions on certain Islamic groups, primarily the small number of Shi'a. The Government continues to monitor the activities of the Shi'a minority.

In April 2000, the state of Perlis passed a Shari’a law subjecting Islamic "deviants" and apostates to 1 year of "rehabilitation" (under the Constitution, religion, including Shari’a law, is a state matter). Leaders of the opposition Islamic party, PAS, have stated that the penalty for apostasy should be death.

Loss of right to marry
Aslina Jailani was a Muslim who converted to Christianity. She was denied the right to register her marriage with the Registrar of Marriages. She is currently going through the secular courts to seek a a declaration that she is free to practise the faith of her choice, and have the word 'Islam' dropped from her identity card. Her legal case is based on the freedom of religion clause in the constitution.

Torture by police
Joshua Jamaluddin was incarcerated under the ISA for converting to Christianity. He later detailed his torture during his incarceration. Now he is an activist for allowing greater religious freedom in Malaysia.

 

[Gelion]

Define "free" for me please....

 

[Gr3yL3gion]

Well, what you guys post there is true. Islam is indeed Malaysia's official religion. But it is also a democracy as well, we got elections and free to elect our government since we are independent at 1957.

People other than muslims here get to practice any religion that they choose, hell we even have mormons missionaries preaching here.

Btw, I'm speaking here as a christian that live here since 1981.

 

[wit>trope]

Turkey is probably the best example. Indonesia might be borderline on the 'free' part.

Indonesia is not free. From the US Department of State:

Section II: Status of Religious Freedom

Legal/Policy Framework

The Constitution provides for "all persons the right to worship according to his or her own religion or belief," and states that "the nation is based upon belief in one supreme God" and the Government generally respects these provisions; however, there are some restrictions on certain types of religious activity and on unrecognized religions.

The Ministry of Religious Affairs extends official status to only five faiths: Islam, Catholicism, Protestantism, Buddhism, and Hinduism. Religious organizations other than the five recognized faiths are able to register with the Government, but only with the State Ministry for Culture and Tourism, and only as social organizations. This results in restrictions on certain types of religious activities and on religions with fewer domestic followers. In recent years, the Government had taken steps to normalize the status of Confucians and Jehovah's Witnesses, but it failed to accord them and members of other less-represented faiths equal treatment in such areas as civil registration. Religions that are not permitted to register are precluded from renting venues to hold services. Any religion that cannot register is forced to find alternative means to practice their faith.

The Government permits the practice of the indigenous belief system of Kepercayaan, but only as a cultural manifestation, and not as a religion; followers of "Aliran Kepercayaan" must register with the Ministry of Education's Department of National Education. Some religious minorities whose activities had been banned in the past, such as those of the Rosicrucians, were allowed to operate openly. Other minority faiths such as Zoroastrianism, Shintoism, and Taoism legally also are permitted.

Religious groups are also restricted from evangelizing other religious groups.

Turkey is not free either:

http://www.minaret.org/allman.htm

From its creation, the Republic of Turkey has represented a secular democratic experiment in a Muslim country. However, Turkish style secularism is not the same as its western counterpart. Secularism in Turkey does not mean a complete separation between religion and state. In contrast to America, the state openly controls religion. The Directorate of Religious Affairs is attached to the Prime Ministry. Clerics are paid by the State in return for their loyalty to the official interpretation of Islam and government limits on religion. The limits are numerous: preachers read government prepared sermons; open displays of religion are forbidden; male public servants cannot grow beards and female civil workers are not allowed to wear headscarves. Only the dead are permitted religious services; even marriage is considered out of the bounds of religion.

This also all mentioned pretty much by the United States Department of State:

The Constitution provides for freedom of religion, and the Government generally respects this right in practice; however, the Government imposes some restrictions on Muslim and other religious groups and on Muslim religious expression in government offices and state-run institutions, including universities.

There was some improvement in the status of respect for religious freedom during the period covered by this report. Nevertheless, some Muslims, Christians, and Baha'is faced some restrictions and occasional harassment, including detention for alleged proselytizing or unauthorized meetings. The Government continued to oppose "Islamic fundamentalism." Authorities continue their broad ban on wearing Muslim religious dress in government facilities: including universities, schools, and workplaces.

These State Department reports I've been quoting on all these Muslim countries (Indonesia, Turkey, Pakistan -- someone thought PAKISTAN was free , Malaysia) etc are like 50 pages long ... the list of religious freedom restrictions and abuses is massive.

 

[ainwood]

Well, what you guys post there is true. Islam is indeed Malaysia's official religion. But it is also a democracy as well, we got elections and free to elect our government since we are independent at 1957.

People other than muslims here get to practice any religion that they choose, hell we even have mormons missionaries preaching here.

Btw, I'm speaking here as a christian that live here since 1981.

And if religious freedom is written-in to the constitution, then I think that says something

 

[wit>trope]

Well, what you guys post there is true. Islam is indeed Malaysia's official religion. But it is also a democracy as well, we got elections and free to elect our government since we are independent at 1957.

People other than muslims here get to practice any religion that they choose, hell we even have mormons missionaries preaching here.

But according the US Department of State, people who are Muslims are in practice not permitted to practice any religion they choose. They are not permitted to convert to another religion. So much for freedom of religion. They are even subject to a 1 year sentence of "rebailitation" and a proposal has been made by the opposition party to give them the death penalty. The US Department of State also says that non-Sunni religious freedom is "signifcantly restricted."

And if religious freedom is written-in to the constitution, then I think that says something

Um, if you think a country has religious freedom even though Muslims are not permitted in practice to convert to another religion, then what you mean by "religious freedom" and what I mean by "religious freedom" must be like night and day. Remember this is what the US Department of State says:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/35405.htm

Restrictions on Religious Freedom

In practice Muslims are not permitted to convert to another religion. In several recent rulings, secular courts have ceded jurisdiction to the Islamic courts in matters involving conversion to or from Islam.

 

[Ahmad]

Define "free" for me please....

Right! How do you define a "free" country?

Democratically elected government? Lots of those.

Freedom to practice any religion? Fewer of those.

No discrimination against people of any faith or race? Almost none probably.