Are watermills a waste of money?

[Seabastian Civ]

A build priority thread in S&T mentioned watermills as an essential build for tall empires. I almost never build them, and when I do, it's always much later in the game. Am I misguided? I find their cost in hammers and maintenance too high for that early in the game. Am I missing out on something?

I play on Immortal. Usually go 4 City Tall into a small puppet empire and shoot for science or diplo victory.

 

[civ54lyfe]

I try to find the time to build them, if I failed to found the city on a hill but it's on a river. But in Civ, "waste of time" and "waste of money" actually has important differences; it's hard to call. A lot of people will simply tell you to not bother with a water mill.

ed: I thknk it's a waste of time, but not a waste of money, depending on the game.

 

[sufficiency]

You get +2food and +1hammer and it only costs 2gpt.

 

[Securion]

I build it asap.

 

[kirbdog]

If you can get a granary, water mill, library, and university up before public schools, along with whatever else you need, they are all fantastic buildings for science that I would not want to pass up.

 

[Zezima]

When I settle cities mid game and beyond, they are almost always the first thing I build, even before monuments or shrines. I prefer improving my growth before going for science/culture/gold buildings, and the water mill improves both food and production.

Maintenance cost shouldn't be an issue. It might set you into negative GPT very early when you only have 1 or 2 cities running, but the whole point of surplus gold is to support your maintenance costs. 2 gpt is easily worth an extra citizen and a slight boost to production.

They might be inefficient when you crunch the numbers on Immortal+, I wouldn't know personally.

 

[joncnunn]

A build priority thread in S&T mentioned watermills as an essential build for tall empires. I almost never build them, and when I do, it's always much later in the game. Am I misguided? I find their cost in hammers and maintenance too high for that early in the game. Am I missing out on something?

I play on Immortal. Usually go 4 City Tall into a small puppet empire and shoot for science or diplo victory.

For a tall empire; Growth early is the most important thing. So Watermills are indeed a very high priority in cities that can build them.
In addition, a watermill produces a hammer as well.
If not interested in growth at the moment due to happiness reasons just work more productive hammer tiles.

 

[bdporter]

For a tall empire; Growth early is the most important thing. So Watermills are indeed a very high priority in cities that can build them.
In addition, a watermill produces a hammer as well.
If not interested in growth at the moment due to happiness reasons just work more productive hammer tiles.

I agree. Watermills are a must build in the early game for any strategy you're using.

 

[I_qua_I]

I find their cost in hammers and maintenance too high for that early in the game.

I'm honestly kind of curious as to what else you'd want to be spending your gold/hammers on early game when going tall. Wonders???

 

[skallben]

Never build them. The hammer gain takes costruction time+a lot of turns to even out and an alternative investment could have been more useful during that time, not only growth is crucial in early game. It's hard to put into calculations what another soldier/settler/building would have contributed instead but I think it's easy to substitute what a waterwheel does. I'm well aware it's a potential gain of 2F1H but I'm just saying that the cost of it and the time for it to pay off does not seem to outweigh alternatives. I rather relocate a worker for more food, save the hammers by not building it and the hammer gain is null +2GPT (excluding modifiers). There are so many other ways to invest those hammers that could potentially benefit the larger strategy. I'm sure I could have worded this better but hey, it's later over here

But then I am no longer a strict buildoholic, I find that very difficult on Immortal level.

 

[Carmack]

I generally only build them in areas I know will need the growth help. Like a city with a small river and lots of hills or tundra.

 

[Optional]

I'm honestly kind of curious as to what else you'd want to be spending your gold/hammers on early game when going tall. Wonders???

I think that's a good idea. Something like the Pyramids can give you 2 workers who will also give you food and production by making farms and mines. It's probably better, because productive hammer tiles are even better with a mine on it, something the water mill doesn't give you.
Also ordinary units can be good to spend hammers on, if you can crush a barb camp for a maritime CS, this will also give you extra food.

The water mill is a decent building if you have the happiness to afford the growth, but I normally try getting a couple of settlers out and then see where I am. If I've been a bit unlucky with free influence for CS's I'm probably not happy enough to build one, but perhaps there were easy quests and I have happiness to spare.
A water mill is not something I immediately build after I've researched The Wheel, but if happiness allows it after having 4 towns in or so, why not?

 

[I_qua_I]

I think that's a good idea. Something like the Pyramids can give you 2 workers who will also give you food and production by making farms and mines. It's probably better, because productive hammer tiles are even better with a mine on it, something the water mill doesn't give you.

But it does... The food yield allows you to get some more pop relatively quickly; since it's still early in the game the cities aren't too big yet and they will grow pretty fast with extra food. This extra pop can easily translate into the working of an extra hill tile (mined or not), farm, or what have you. The real yield you're getting is situational of course (terrain, specialist needs, etc.) but you are always going to get more out of it than the simple base yield that the watermill grants.

 

[Dreadnought]

They're a great rush buy for new cities later in the game...makes the city grow quicker and build a few of the early buildings faster, especially when other buildings like libraries aren't lucrative yet.

 

[guinsoo]

The only reason water mills look bad (in my opinion) is because they're often compared to Granaries. And it's true, Granaries are tons better in terms of what you get for the cost and maintenance. In my eyes, Granaries are way too strong and probably need a nerf... idk. But anyway, that doesn't make Watermills bad. Going from, say, +4 food to +6 food per turn has a huge effect in how quickly a city grows and thus how big it will eventually become. Plus the 1 hammer.

 

[Zaimejs]

I always build them. I don't think much about the math. I just know that after building a watermill, my city grows faster and makes stuff faster.

 

[iconocast]

the food and production is a must early on

i will either bee line for a granary or a water mill depending on starting tiles

 

[tomtom5858]

I build them, always. Even in my ICS games. Why, you ask? Because that either translates into higher growth, in tall or when growing to size 3, or an extra hill to work, plus the hammer. Their hammer cost is offset by the fact that they produce a hammer. They cost what, 120 hammers? That is offset in 120 turns if you're growing (although the snowball fuelled by the additional growth won't be calculated by me), or 40 turns (naked hill), 30 turns (mined hill), or 24 turns (mined strategic hill). This is worth it, to me.

 

[Matthew.]

2 gold maintenance

 

[emblemfire]

I think the main idea is that with that 2 food, you can always turn around and work a 3 hammer mine without shrinking. You need 2 food per pop and mines don't give you any, so you need to get them else where and the water mill is a great place to get some food to support your production.