Are we wasting our time trying to change Afghan society?

zulu9812

The Newbie Nightmare
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From the Guardian
The case of Bibi Sanubar, the Afghan widow brutally flogged and shot dead by the Taliban for the crime of being pregnant, caused outrage in the wes. Earlier in the month, Time magazine published a truly shocking picture of Aisha, an 18-year-old girl whose nose had been cut off because she had run away from her inlaws. With so much talk recently of political reconciliation with the Taliban leadership, their attitude towards women is fast becoming as urgent and emotive a topic as it was when they first came to power in the mid-1990s.

However nauseating the treatment of Bibi or Aisha, it would be a mistake to let our stomachs rule our heads. However much westerners would like to see change in Afghan society, this was never the reason our military went to Afghanistan – and nor does it justify our staying there now. The US commander in Afghanistan, David Petraeus, is wary of mission creep and sought to clarify this point in November 2009. "Let us not forget why we are in Afghanistan," he said. "It is to ensure that this country cannot become once again a sanctuary for al-Qaida." Women's rights are important, but they have no direct bearing on the threat from al-Qaida.

This does not mean the west should stand by in silence. On the contrary, it is our duty to go on arguing the case for gender equality and to keep Afghans engaged in that old debate. But we have no right to be shrill and it will do no good to dictate. If social change is to come, it must come from within, which, eventually, it will.

It might help if we understood the Taliban better. The harshness of the punishments they sometimes mete out only seems incomprehensible to the west. The strict sexual propriety the Taliban insist upon is rooted in ancient Pashtun tribal custom, the over-riding purpose of which is to protect the integrity of the tribe, and nothing threatens the gene pool like extramarital relations. "The Pashtun must breed well if he is to breed fighters," wrote the poet Ghani Khan in 1947. "The potential mother of the man of tomorrow is the greatest treasure of the tribe and is guarded jealously... death to those who dare to risk the health of the tribe. It is treachery and sabotage which you also punish with death." The system, as Ghani Khan acknowledges, is "hard and brutal", but it works. The Pashtuns are, famously, the largest tribal society in the world. Some 42m of them are divided into about 60 tribes and 400 sub-clans and they are intensely proud of their culture which has survived three millenniums of almost constant invasion and occupation.

The maltreatment of women is by no means exclusive to the Taliban, nor even to Pashtuns. It is practised all over Afghanistan, including by the state that Nato troops are currently dying to support. Witness the police chief, General Abdul Jabar, who remarked after Bibi Sanubar was killed: "This was not the way she should have been punished. She should have been arrested and we should have had proof that she'd had an illegal affair. Then she should have come to court and faced justice." As a contributor to arrse.co.uk, the informal Army Rumour Service website, remarked last week: "I'm guessing a guilty verdict by the Afghan courts would be followed by a stoning? What exactly are we fighting this war for?" The emotive observation on Time magazine's ghastly cover – "What happens if we leave Afghanistan" – was spurious, because it is happening anyway, while we are still there.

I am certain, after 14 years of encounters with the Taliban, that they are not beyond redemption. It seems a paradox, but in the 1990s the Taliban leadership did not see themselves as oppressors of women but as their defenders. Westerners forget the historical context in which the Taliban emerged in 1994, although no Afghan ever will. The Taliban's first purpose was to bring law and order to a country that had been devastated by five years of vicious civil war and in those areas that came under their control, they succeeded brilliantly. "The real source of their success," the US assistant secretary of state Robin Raphel told a closed UN session in New York in November 1996, "has been the willingness of many Afghans, particularly Pashtuns, to tacitly trade unending fighting and chaos for a measure of peace and security, even with several social restrictions." To many Afghans, including many Afghan women, oppression was a small price to pay in exchange for an end to the wholesale rape and slaughter of the preceding years. The Taliban appeared the lesser of two evils, and – in a year when 1,250 civilians have so far been killed in the fighting with Nato – to many they still do.

Shukria Barakzai, a Pashtun MP and a leading women's rights campaigner, thinks the west has always misread her country. "I changed my view [of the Taliban] three years ago when I realised Afghanistan is on its own," she said recently. "It's not that the international community doesn't support us. They just don't understand us. The Taliban are part of our population. They have different ideas – but as democrats we have to accept that." Her view is all the more remarkable considering that in 1999, Barakzai was beaten by the Taliban's religious police, the infamous Department for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice, for the "crime" of going to the doctor's unaccompanied by her husband. If even she is now in favour of political compromise with the Taliban, what choice does the west really have but to listen?

The west views gender equality as an absolute human right and so we should. But no country, certainly not Britain, has yet managed unequivocally to establish that right at home; and we tend to forget both how recent our progress towards it is, as well as how hard the struggle has been. Full women's suffrage was not granted in Britain until 1928. With such a track record, is it not presumptuous to insist that a proud, patriarchal society that has survived for 3,000 years should now instantly mirror us? That, in effect, is what well-meaning western experts did when they helped to draw up Afghanistan's 2003 constitution. The stipulation that at least 25% of MPs should be women is plain hypocritical. Even after the 2010 election in Britain – a parliamentary democracy that has had rather longer to mature than Afghanistan's – women MPs account for just 22% of the total.

Women's suffrage in Britain was achieved not by imposition from abroad but through long internal social debate, which is as it should be in so obviously sovereign a matter. Emmeline Pankhurst would not have succeeded had she been a foreigner. Social change will come eventually to Afghanistan, but it must come from within, and at its own pace. Our soldiers shouldn't die for it.

James Fergusson

It seems to me that NATO has 2 choices in Afghanistan:

1. That we conclude that Nation Building has been a failure, that fundamental change in society can only come from within. Note that this is not moral relativism: it is surely correct that gender equality is highly desirable - it's just that we (the West) do not have the ability to bring it about in a foreign country that doesn't yet want it. I say "yet", because I think that it is safe to assume that they one day will.

2. That we disagree with the above article and press ahead with Nation Building. This does, however, require some hard choices to be made. First of all, NATO troop numbers must be increased. Secondly, elections must be suspended. Thirdly, western cultural values should be enforced (without going so far as to mimic the Taliban's 'style'). The current wishy-washy approach clearly isn't working and, to paraphrase Rousseau in The Social Contract, the people must be forced to be free*. This isn't the same thing as "invade their country, kill their leaders and convert them all to Christianity".

Note that I don't necessarily agree with either option, I'm just putting it out there for debate.

*Think of the drug addict. He chooses to take drugs. But if he is addicted, is it still his choice? No, so he must be prevented from taking drugs - he must be forced to be free.
 
The west views gender equality as an absolute human right and so we should. But no country, certainly not Britain, has yet managed unequivocally to establish that right at home; and we tend to forget both how recent our progress towards it is, as well as how hard the struggle has been. Full women's suffrage was not granted in Britain until 1928. With such a track record, is it not presumptuous to insist that a proud, patriarchal society that has survived for 3,000 years should now instantly mirror us? That, in effect, is what well-meaning western experts did when they helped to draw up Afghanistan's 2003 constitution. The stipulation that at least 25% of MPs should be women is plain hypocritical. Even after the 2010 election in Britain – a parliamentary democracy that has had rather longer to mature than Afghanistan's – women MPs account for just 22% of the total.

I think there's a huge difference between suffrage and being flogged and shot death.

But yes, the point shouldn't be able nation building or bringing democracy to the people but should be able ensuring that basic human rights are met.
 

Define "wasting our time"... Even if Afghanistan will not become a democracy in the western style, if we save Afghan women from the terror of Taliban regime, then I don't think the efforts are wasted.
 
I am tempted to paraphrase a British WW1-era newspaper:

"... if it were physically possible for Afghanistan to be towed out to sea and sunk there, the air of the world would at once seem clearer."

(back then it was about Serbia and Europe)

---

Seriously, the problem is NATO doesn't know what to do. It hasn't chosen which way to go, it wants everything at the same time (democracy, human rights, gender equality, religious tolerance, peace between ethnic groups, no drugs trade, etc.) and so it will have nothing of that.

My view has evolved to see Afghanistan as an inherently failed state, a society so primitive that any talk of Western-style democracy seems absurd to me. The key element to support a democracy (a developed middle class) is entirely missing.

We should have simply divided it between warlords and support them and their militias in exchange for their promise to tackle Taleban and Al Qaeda. All our primary goals (destruction of the terrorist infrastructure) would have been accomplished and it would have been much cheaper. This way we're only going to embarrass ourselves there.
 
#1 on that list. As a foreign culture we could never hope to change them. It's time to leave.
 
No, but I think we have to calibrate our expectations. History is replete with examples of forced changing of a culture, the problem for us is that they were normally accomplished via means we would consider horribly barbaric now.

Our efforts will not be so overt, our results not so readily apparent, and certainly not as quick.
 

Define "wasting our time"... Even if Afghanistan will not become a democracy in the western style, if we save Afghan women from the terror of Taliban regime, then I don't think the efforts are wasted.

It's not a matter of wasted time but mission creep and that it likely wouldn't be a simple "fireman rescues kitten" mission.

The main reason to be in Afghanistan is to get Osama bin Laden/Al Qaeda, stabilize Afghanistan (which doesn't necessarily mean make it like the USA) so it isn't a hotbed of terrorism, and play nice with Pakistan.

This article was also in that issue of Time, and I recommend reading it. This is a companion report to the article.
 
I don't like how the article compares western women with afghan women. Even in the middle ages western women were not as bad off as afghan women. They didn't have to entirely cover themselves and they weren't beaten for leaving the house without a man.

Of course we can't change their culture but I don't think that's why the troops are there. They just want to make the region relatively stable and while that does sometimes tie in with cultural issues, culture isn't the main goal.
 
and nothing threatens the gene pool like extramarital relations.
Genetics does not work that way!
 
I don't like how the article compares western women with afghan women. Even in the middle ages western women were not as bad off as afghan women. They didn't have to entirely cover themselves and they weren't beaten for leaving the house without a man.

Of course we can't change their culture but I don't think that's why the troops are there. They just want to make the region relatively stable and while that does sometimes tie in with cultural issues, culture isn't the main goal.

Male dominance was very similar in the Western world. You're basically talking about aesthetics. It's not a big difference other than cover your face or not, which is motivated by a specific religious teaching.

I'd say in both cases, it amounts to feudalism reinforced through females being viewed as trophies and rewards for the loyal adherents.
 
I would say it's more than just aesthetics. Women didn't have many legal rights in medieval Europe but they weren't subject to the severe restrictions of Pashtun women with the possible exception of nuns.
 
If we took over government administration from top to bottom for the next century we could change the society for the better.

As it is at the moment we are not going to achieve anything apart from schools/clinics which will be shut as soon as the Western forces leave.

The best bet now is to train Afghanistan's army so they can provide for there own security. Then we can finally leave this medieval nation..
 
No, they will change. And those that don't will be ground into dust
 

Define "wasting our time"... Even if Afghanistan will not become a democracy in the western style, if we save Afghan women from the terror of Taliban regime, then I don't think the efforts are wasted.

Isn't it a funny coincidence that saving afghan women from the Taliban only makes for magazine covers when popular enthusiasm for the war in far-away Afghanistan wanes?

Oh, wait - no, it isn't!

'Out-of-the-box' CIA think tank proposes concerns over women's rights, fear of terrorism as ways to boost support for Afghan war

Evidently spooked by the collapse of the Dutch government over the country's involvement in Afghanistan, the CIA has put together a strategy proposal to prevent what it fears could be a "precipitous" collapse of support for the war in Afghanistan among European allies.

A document marked "confidential / not for foreign eyes," posted to the Wikileaks Web site, suggests strategies to manipulate European public opinion on the war, particularly in France and Germany.

The document doesn't propose any direct methods by which the CIA could achieve this -- there are no references to planting propaganda in the press, for example -- but it does lay out what it sees as the key talking points to changing hearts and minds on the war. Among its proposals, the policy paper suggests playing up the plight of Afghan women to French audiences, as the French public has shown concern for women's rights in Afghanistan.
 
It's impossible to know the final effects of any action.

It can be argued that our presence is a glimmer of hope to the people oppressed in the region, in particular women.

It can also be argued that our presence is making things worse for them, causing the Taliban to be even more cruel because they are trying to quell dissent and collaboration with us or our culture.

You cannot know if the end result is positive or negative.
 
It's impossible to know the final effects of any action.

Hindsight is 20/20.

The probability of any outcome is likely greater than zero, but not necessarily by much (i.e. "don't hold your breath wishing").

You can measure anything by any metric you like (simultaneously knowing the position and momentum of a quanta, excepted).
 
I would say it's more than just aesthetics. Women didn't have many legal rights in medieval Europe but they weren't subject to the severe restrictions of Pashtun women with the possible exception of nuns.

Noble women had "rights"
Peons on the other hand ....
 
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