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Are work boats too good at exploring?

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Lanstro, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Lanstro

    Lanstro Warlord

    Joined:
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    I play continents+. Compare water scouting options:
    • Work boats - 5 movement, 40 hammers, can temporarily traverse ocean, can share a tile with other civs' military units, can't defend themselves but are generally lowest priority targets / will not be attacked at all, does not cost military unit supply
    • Trireme - 4 movement, 90 hammers, can temporarily traverse ocean, can't share a tile with other civs' military units
    • Scout/other land unit - 3 movement, cannot traverse ocean, 1 sight range, can hop off and claim goody huts, sitting duck if hit by barbarians at sea.
    You can generally find most of the continents and civs with 2 workboats. I find them vastly superior to the other options when exploring by sea. Seems a bit too good and also unrealistic. In my current game, I scouted the entire Persian coast while he was at war with me - Persia had plenty of chances to just eat up my work boat. Seems like work boats need to be attacked more, and maybe either lose some movement points or lose the ability to traverse ocean.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  2. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    I think just giving them the sight malus promotion would do the job (like emissary has) but yeah, youre right I seen other people bring up the same thing
     
    Grabbl likes this.
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    They should only have 1 sight for sure
     
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  4. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    make them use 3 movement points on ocean until compass
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    CrazyG solution is easier, less code, and to the point. Shipping boats are not going to cross oceans if they can't see the other end.
     
  6. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    You can just use scout to see other end and still use work boat to explore. I would completely block them entering ocean except for own territory. They are work boats and shouldn't be able to travel to nearby islands or continents.
     
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  7. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    I'd reduce their movement points to 2 and make them unable to enter any ocean tile.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  8. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    Reducing their movement points will make them unfun for players; I don't want to micromanage setting up sea Luxes on that scale.
     
  9. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

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    In my experience, most luxuries/fish tiles are within 7 tiles of my city in which I built the work boat. So I don't really see the problem with micromanaging, especially considering the micromanaging workers warrant. On the other side of the scale, it makes exploring with work boats a nuisance and much harder, so the payoff is imho good enough to warrant having to send a work boat to a three turn journey to the luxury/fish tile.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  10. Grabbl

    Grabbl Prince

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    I honestly think it would make them unattractive enough for exploring to simply lower their sight to 1. Their normal abilities are well-balanced, I think, and this wouldn't affect their improvement building era.
     
  11. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Yes, luckily you can upgrade pathfinder to scout, with a sight promotion, and have it placed where you can see sea tiles beyond the ocean and move your fishing boat to the other side and not have it captured by barbarians.

    This a exploit in need to be prevented...


    It sounds like a player needs to plan for such exploitation and be lucky enough. Even if the issue is not completely solved, it can be mostly ignored by this simple solution.
     
  12. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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  13. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Is there any reaosn at all that work boats needs to be able to enter ocean (pre-oil)? No, just give them -1 sight and ban entering ocean. Very simple solution
     
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  14. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    The corner cases might not be worth it, but I would start with 1 or 0 tile sight. I honestly don't see any problems after that, and then there's no problem with corner cases. (Which DO happen with moderate frequency.)
     
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  15. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    I've never really considered exploring with a workboat before. Is it really that much of an advantage over an embarked scout?
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    A work boat currently has the following advantages over an embarked land unit-
    1 more movement (2 more if you have the progress policy for worker movement)
    1 more sight
    Can cross ocean tiles (and see across ocean to cross it)
    Does not consume supply
    Barbarian ships will not attack it
    Can share tiles with military units of other civs or city states

    You will scout most coastal areas much faster with a work boat, and you will likely get a chance to take him home and upgrade a fish
     
    vyyt likes this.
  17. infidel88

    infidel88 Prince

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    There happen to be fishies on ocean, thats why I was saying to allow WB to enter ocean only in own territory
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    What map script? Continents and Pangea don't do this.

    Sure, allowing them to enter ocean in friendly territory would be fine.
     
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  19. vyyt

    vyyt Deity

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    Never ever seen this.
     
  20. Infixo

    Infixo Deity

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