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Are You Going to Watch the Debates?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Paul in Saudi, Jun 26, 2019.

?

Will You Watch?

  1. No

  2. Yes, Live

  3. Yes, afterwards

  4. I will wait for Jimmy Kimmel to tell me what happened.

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Zkribbler

    Zkribbler Deity

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    You're assuming there's an open market and competition in American medicine. There isn't. No one compares prices.
     
    Hygro and hobbsyoyo like this.
  2. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Might also be cost of college. Doctors are well paid here, 6 figures but they're not all flicking to America.

    It's also very hard to sue here. ACC tends to cover injuries and you can get paid 80% of your wages if you get hurt and need time off. Boss doesn't pay for that but can't fire you while you have an ACC claim.

    You can really only sue for gross negligence not if your doctor makes a mistake.
     
  3. Commodore

    Commodore Technology of Peace

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    That's part of it too. Doctors and lawyers incur much higher educational costs here than pretty much anyone else. So if there weren't a huge payoff at the end of that financial nightmare, no one would want to do it. And the last thing society needs is a shortage of doctors. Which is already kinda happening because of things like frivolous medical malpractice lawsuits.
     
  4. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Yeah you need to protect doctors from that, hence why you can only sue here for gross negligence and even if you win it's not going to be massive.
     
  5. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Yeah, it's weird. You still want to get doctors that suck the F out. And sometimes they do. Even at like the Mayo and stuff. Then again, the way we calculate damages, lifetime earnings lost and such, makes fields you really want hyper saturated and not expensive, like OBGYN and infant delivery, sort of kinda a nightmare to insure.

    We have a semi-local hospital, it's not wonderful for a lot of specialist stuff, but it's a treasure. It's a decent place to have a baby. It's hard to explain it' niche in a way that makes sense to international people. "No, you don't really want chemo there, or a kidney stone. But it might work. But if you're looking to knock up your wife, it's a better place to be than just about anywhere. They'll refer you appropriately if they need to."
     
    Socrates99 and Sommerswerd like this.
  6. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    This is not how the world works actually, people don't just stop working because its not as lucrative as something once was, doctors in some fields could take a 50% cut and it would still be a top paying job in america. Doctor pay year over year is way above inflation. We don;t need to actually cut their pay, we just need to stop its growth for a while.

    Also your reference to what the market will bear assumes a rational marketplace, that is not the case in any market it is a lie and it is an especially evil lie when it comes to healthcare. What will you pay to walk again?
     
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  7. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    Doctors and hospitals might take a pay cut but they'd also save a lot of money and time under a M4all system.

    Malpractice insurance is high because people and their insurer are footing the bill not only for the original procedure/treatment but also for whatever is necessary to correct a mistake. Settlement amounts would drop if that cost was lifted off individual shoulders.

    Medical bills frequently go unpaid and doctors/hospitals eat the cost. ERs are required to treat patients regardless of insurance coverage. Lenders barely even look at medical debt when considering credit because so many people have it. Over 500k bankruptcies are filed per year due to medical debt. Under M4all all bills get paid.

    Hospitals/doctors could cut billing staff. Billing multiple insurers with multiple plans takes time and money. Doctors also have extra paperwork to fill out themselves for ins companies that detail the treatments given and justification of those treatments. Without those the ins co may deny coverage, stiffing the doctor or patient.

    This should go without saying but they'll be able to spend less on healthcare coverage for their own staff. As Farmboy pointed out, hospitals specialize and can't serve every need for their staff. My wife is a nurse at our local hospital. We still need to go to out of network hospitals for certain things because our hospital focuses on cardiac issues. It has no pediatric unit, no burn unit and there are a number of specialized surgeries it can't provide. They have to insure us for that. Under M4all it'd cost less.

    It's also more efficient. The ACA capped what an insurance company can keep of the money you send them at 20%. There was no cap before that. Even with the cap many companies stay as close to that 20% as possible. Medicare's administration costs are around 3-5%. Even some of the better ins companies can't match that, BCBS hovers around 12%. More of your money goes to the actual service providers under M4all.
     
    Hygro and Berzerker like this.
  8. Naskra

    Naskra King

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    Administrative savings from M4All may or may not be realized - a host of new bureaucrats is called for. What can confidently be expected is wait times; what is not rationed by price will be rationed by inconvenience. There is no infinite supply of medical services; anything that is free will be consumed excessively and wasted. This true of band-aids as well as beer. Think VA system writ large.
    The good news is that a parallel system of cash only medicine will appear. With a healthier supply/demand dynamic, it shouldn't be too costly. The same people who now pay oodles to avoid free public schooling will also pay to avoid free public medicine.
     
  9. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    Its like you think the US is the only nation on earth? This has already been done elsewhere and the wait times only happen in non emergent settings. Think like knee replacements (a big source of the wealth generated by orthos that I was complaining about earlier). So considering the bankruptcy rates with medicine along with needless dying this is a small harm.

    Or in other words, use a cane a little longer **** your knee replacement. The convenience of a small minority is killing people quite literally.
     
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  10. Socrates99

    Socrates99 Bottoms up!

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    No federal bureaucrat will make as much money as ins industry lawyers, exec's, or lobbyists. No advertising, no lobbying, less litigation means less admin costs. It wont be creating a new bureaucracy, just replacing proven inefficient one with one that's proven to be more efficient.

    The wait times bullfeathers is such a sad tired trope. When I needed shoulder surgery I waited about 3 months. When I needed my gall bladder out I got in right away. That's how it already works here and, I'm sure a non US citizen can back me up, that's how it works elsewhere.

    Shortages do occur. They occur here just like anywhere else. Know how they're rationed here? By who can pay the most. Know how they're rationed anywhere else? By who needs it the most.

    You act like systems like this are purely theoretical. They're not. They're being used all over the globe and many of them function better and all of them are cheaper than ours.
     
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  11. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    Since medicare's administrative costs are borne by insurers, the private prescription drug pipeline, and hospitals, you get to boast that Medicare has a 3% administrative cost by just ignoring absolutely everything but the underwriting office.

    Given Medicare is 8.3% annual growth since 1970 and private sector is 9.3% annual growth in the same period, and we assumed, as goodthinking Berniebros, that the medicare growth was pure doctors and the insurer growth was pure administrators, you would expect then that almost half of the total growth of the industry to be doctors.

    But doctors account for only 4.7 percent of the growth of the industry, not half. For every 1 net new doctor there have been 20 new administrators. Therefore Medicare's growth has been 90 percent administrative in the very least even if we retain the Berniebro assumption that the private sector growth was 100% inefficient in the same period.
     
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  12. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    How many "support personnel" do you guess it takes to produce a practicing medical doctor? A Registered Nurse? Most of those aren't even going to be in the right accounting pool, but they're still going to occupy lived lives, hence, expense. Especially if attempting to increase supply?
     
  13. Naskra

    Naskra King

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    This is the heart of the problem. M4All increases demand radically, while addressing supply with (something from Washington) to be announced.
     
  14. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Money. It takes money. Educational funding, retraining programs. It's hard to train nurses because we don't pay nurses enough to teach people who aren't nurses to be nurses. Programs(such as community colleges) that would like to expand, cannot. People can't quit the jobs they want to quit while raising families to learn how to be something we need more.
     
  15. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    Will Medicare for all compare prices?
     
  16. Naskra

    Naskra King

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    No. It will set prices. Bernie says he's a socialist and he means it.
     
  17. Kyriakos

    Kyriakos Alien spiral maker

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    National health service has been a thing in all other "western" countries (and a great many eastern block or other) for half a century now. Arguing that the US cannot sustain what every other country can is like arguing you can't have voting suffrage.
     
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  18. Berzerker

    Berzerker Deity

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    thats what my insurance company does now, just not as good as I'd like :(

    but I have a catastrophic policy so I get hit on the regular maintenance stuff

    I wonder if my insurance company was covering more of my 'small' costs they'd do a better job at negotiating the bill.
     
  19. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Addressing supply takes money. Any plan that claims to address supply without taking money is full of it. Any worldview that involves moving women and men into nursing and healthcare without causing them to leave other populated occupations(which is also a cost) is full of it.
     
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  20. Tristan_C

    Tristan_C Emperor

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    The other western countries, whose defensive needs are covered by the deterrent effect of US forces since ww2, are amassing debt and going sour now, even without the challenge that a 'US-NHS' would have administering the differing needs of 330 million in diverse regions. Since healthcare is not an enumerated power of congress, the constitutional thing to do in the US would be to leave the issue entirely in the hands of the states as the 10th says to do, shifting the payroll tax accordingly, and keep the fed in charge of seeing state policy obligations correctly transitioned with changes of residence (an interstate commerce matter). Individual state health services would bear more resemblance to the western nations you are thinking of, which are governed locally and handle smaller, less diverse populations. I would like to see what would happen if Brussels took full command of operations and established Brusselcare. That would be the end of all this shilling in the US, at least.
     

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