Discussion in 'Rise from Erebus Modmod' started by Sarisin, Nov 11, 2009.
I believe hamsters are beasts in the release version. Already fixed.
My biggest issue with the animals at the moment is that with their power, you have to specifically not use a tactic (send hunters out to capture them) if you want an interesting game.
Otherwise you can quite easily end up with a animal army that can crush all it meets with no build cost.
Each animal requires someone in the stack (adjacent square?) with subdue animal otherwise it goes barbarian (or attach 1 animal to the hunter like great commanders). Means need to build & xp up lvl3/4 scout for each animal under control.
Alternative, when you capture an animal it has a captured animal promotion giving it major penalties. Once you get it back to a city you have to spend production to train it up as a controlled warbeast able to fight alongside your troops (i.e. remove the promotion). Means slows animal retrieval (requires escort back to city), and applies a build cost that can be tweaked for different animal types (still less than equivalent strength unit, and get higher strength units it would not be possible to build yet)
Those are good ideas.
I've noticed whenever I capture a Mammoth now it gets the Enraged promotion and, usually, goes suicidal on me before I can turn it into a Mammoth Rider. One today I captured, it went off and killed a lizard, then, next turn it went off AGAIN and was killed. I've given up trying to capture Mammoths - they are damn hard to capture in the first place, and then you just lose them.
Maybe a similar mechanism for all captured animals would cut down on the size of animal armies...although it is reminiscent of the old crappy system for Ravenous Werewolves and AC 90 (when the Avatar of Wrath appeared).
It is pretty easy to make captured animals weak until you train them. Could also give a promo to the hunter rather than an actual captured unit...could then sacrifice the promo to build the animal-specific building. Would fit with the recon art for most civs...
At the momnent, animals stop gaining strength after they are captured. What if recon units (just beast master?) could cast a spell in a city with an animal and hunting lodge called "Train (whatever animal)" This would take x(5? 10?) turns to cast giving the animal exp.
Alternitivley, animals could be allowed to "join" with recon units with animal taming promo and beast taming promo (depending on wether it is an animal or beast).
When the strength of the animals is nerfed, there won't be any need for measures like this.
The animals are tough but a human can adapt and deal with it. The AI is pretty screwed most of the time. Last game i played (5 players, small map, emperor) by turn 200 i had 4 cities and a massive lead. I opened WB and found that every other either still in the capital or had an under developed 2nd city. This is the case in a lot of games. At the most extreme. one or maybe two civs are simply wiped out early (probably bad lair results as well).
If i play an animal friendly race, i can win on deity level without breaking a sweat. The problem is that the more powerful animals changes the entire balance of almost all the races. Any race with strong hunters and/or animal affinity have a huge bonus. I love the fact that you have truly created a wildlands mode that stops rapid land grab expansion but this is almost too extreme and makes certain races really difficult to play with.
However, i am really enjoying the games i play as i now up the difficulty level and try harder races. I often lose, especially if there are animal friendly AI's in the game or i cant break out of my starting location due to unlucky placement and nearby mega beasts that i cant even kill due to fear (sub 100 turn 6str stealth spiders with fear i assume is a bug or a very cruel joke )
So yesterday for the first time I came across a Thunder Lizard. It was a very strong Gurid-size Lizard.
However, before I could get a unit over to possibly capture it (Beast or Animal?) it had vanished. Now I seriously doubt there were any units around that could kill it. Is it just for a few turns or something that it appears?
Also, what exactly is it? Progression of the Lizard-Giant Lizard-Thunder Lizard line?
Still have not seen an Allosaur or T-Rex, but have to admit it is great fun discovering new animals in the wild and I am playing my 9th game of 1.12.
EDIT: Well, I managed to capture the elusive Thunderlizard with my Level 17 Ranger. The Thunderlizard was Strength 28 so I still had to feed it 3 captured Giant Lizards before I had decent odds with the Ranger. So, I now have a Strength 28 unit which can steamroller just about anything on the map...except the defender at Rinwell. I thought I would be able to send the Thunderlizard out to capture that demon isle. No dice, though. Is it possible to capture/raze Rinwell?
If the AI has a problem with the animals, the easiest thing might be to give it a bonus vs them, in the way we get bonuses against barbs on the lower settings. Or give certain classes of their units only (not hunters) so they don't suddenly get animal armies if they're not supposed to.
I'd much rather teach the AI to handle the animals, than give it yet another cheat.
Expansion is not just about filling up territory. It's also meeting the other civs, exploring, and assorted tasks. Making settlers more expensive would fail to curtail that type of expansion.
Yes, the animals are currently a bit much... We underestimated how quickly animals would escalate.
As for 'Animals haven't been a threat as long as there's been civilization', lies. The Aussies lost a war against Emus.
If slowing expansion is your goal, you could introduce an ancient forest like spawn mechanism (although base it on occupied tiles on Cerunnos' turn as opposed to tile entry) when traveling outside of the visibility range of culture borders. Make the number of animals spawning scaling with number of cities, so you need larger and larger expeditions as time goes one. Putting a summons duration on the induced animal spawns would prevent early Str 12, Combat 5 raptor pack monstrosities and solve captured animal army problems. Maybe include a heal-debuff promotion on animal spawn that reduces healing rates until you move (allowing recon units to dispel it), to represent the army's camp getting swarmed and to doom too-small expeditions that try to fortify until healed. Maybe put much, much weaker triggered spawns in the visible, non-cultured tiles to keep people honest. Oh, and give the animals a unit-type beast promotion as well, to salve the feelings of those who believe animals should pose no threat to organized warriors. Top it off with normal, non-animal invasion animal spawns. The end result would make deep-wilds exploration quite doable, but a matter of putting together a full expedition with recon, combat and healing support. Expedition-esque behavior should be AI programmable.
They lost nothing. There wasn't even a single human death. The only 'thread' from the animals was as pests eating crops, something aggrevated more by the environment and draught than a crisis brought on by the birds.
If you want to make a case about an animal threat, locust swarms are the one to look at. But even they destroyed crops, not people, who would only die from lack of crops.
Yes yes, I was being sarcastic there.
The key difference, is Erebus is NOT Earth. Here, animals are just that, animals. They are a threat, but only in vast numbers... And even then, mainly as carriers of Plague or Famine, not in their own right. In Erebus, there is Cernunnos, god of Nature... And since he took up the precept, Nature has become a more dangerous, unforgiven place. All this is from pre-existing lore.
All we've done is make the game match the lore, in a way that I like. More varied, stronger animals, slower expansion/exploration, more rewarding recon line. All good things.
Not to say it's perfect at the moment (Definitely is not), but I think we ARE on the right track here. And if you notice, pretty soon after Vermicious began working on the Animals other mods did the same... Orbis plans to borrow some, Wild Mana did something similar and borrowed some animals, and so on. Obviously, some people agree.
Of course, if you'd like to argue your case a bit you could jump on #Erebus. I'm online, and check it every few minutes while playing Dragon Age.
Yeah, when was the last time YOU saw a bear the size of a van attack and sink a warship? Hmm?
Or undead-plague-carrying-hamsters the size of large dogs?
This is Erbeus. Everything is trying to Kill you (or Worse)
Yeah, I believe that would have been around the same time I saw a Centaur gallop down the street, or a Pyre Zombie explode, or Loki flip a city here in New Jersey, which as we all know lacks culture of any kind.
The whole game/mod is based on fantasy and that gives you license to do just about anything you want if you are the game designer.
The key IMO is to adjust to the new version of the game. I'm really surprised to hear complaints from Human players as I am sure if they tried hard enough they could adapt to the game the way it is now. There are all kinds of ways to do that.
To be fair, though, the way the balance has been tipped is making the AI weaker. One of their strong points in the game is to be able to expand like crazy. Now they can't - in most games anyway. Maybe that wasn't the intent of the programmers in making the animals stronger and tougher, but IMO, it makes the game much more interesting and fun to play.
I really wish I could play on the larger maps like I can with FF, FFH2 or Orbis, but I get too many CTDs. So, I am stuck with a Standard sized map which would be filled very fast in a slower speed game. That eliminates the animals and the barbs totally - two of the fun elements of the game.
Maybe there are better ways to slow down the AI expansion - No Settlers and such. But each has its drawbacks and that's why the game has always been expansion-happy.
It's interesting that the poll is pretty much divided down the middle with half liking the way the animals are in 1.12 and the other half not liking it.
Let's see how the next version is tweaked.
My complaint is not that the animals harm the human player's game, but the AIs'. The game isn't fun if you adapt and use the advantage to steamroll the AIs (and neither is pulling your punches and making stupid decisions). I want a challenge and currently these AIs can't produce one (even with all the cheats they get). I'm just hoping they do much better after the next patch and I don't really care what the solution is as long as the AIs bring their A-game.
Also, it's annoying to have to keep restarting games because an AI player or 2 die 40 turns into the game. On standard maps with the default # of AIs, losing 1 that early sucks.
Riot Starter, what difficulty do you use? At Prince I found just what you said happening - I did adapt to the tough animals. I beelined Animal Husbandry and Hunting. I captured weaker animals and fed them to the stronger ones to capture Lizard Packs, Giant Lizards, and even a Thunder Lizard. With my captured Lizard army I was able to go out and win a Conquest Victory. It wasn't a cakewalk, but it showed adaptation to the game as it is and then using what is available to win.
However, I moved up to Monarch and have found that the AI IS expanding again quickly and I am not able to use the same strategy. The map filled in short order. No AI civs were wiped out early on. The wilderness has disappeared before a third of the game is over.
Unfortunately, in this type of game I find things don't work for me. The game slows down, especially the time between turns and I often get CTDs. This is on a Standard-sized map. I just cannot even begin games on larger maps. For this reason, I will usually subtract one civ from the default starting AI civs so the map doesn't fill up so fast.
Again, it is not my computer. I have a decent rig and have no problems playing FFH2, Orbis or FF with Large or Huge maps.
I'm not saying increasing the difficulty will give you exactly the game you want, but there are a lot of game variables you can fiddle with to find what works for you.
Right now I'm playing Standard Erebus Continent (with high cohesion to make up for bad naval AI) with normal game speed with immortal AIs. I have the default # of AIs, but I'm thinking of adding more since then I could let a couple die and still have a good game.
Oh great. I just realized that I had animal invasions on... I turned it off, but something must have reset my options. The last couple games had that on then, which was why so many of my AIs were dying. With no animal invasions, I remember the AIs not doing too bad. I'll play a couple of games with it off to refresh my memory and see if they still are weak.
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