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Aristocracy Economics (and some republic)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Fafnir13, Oct 22, 2009.

  1. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    I think what would happen is Agristocracy would get ignored by everyone while Financial civs would run a 50/50 Riverside Farm/Cottage while in CS/Slavery/Agrarian which flips to Conquest during a military buildup phase.

    It feels like the right kind of idea though.

    Edit: While we're talking about Slavery, I think it could do with a +50% Worker rate.


    Edit2: UncleJJs take would mean Agristocracy works in its current form for Financial civs as long as their farms were beside a river, making the strategy more exclusive AND more dependent on the starting position RNG.
    Aristocracy, Sacfice the Weak, Slavery, Conquest would be exceptionally powerful after Sanitation was researched. Flauros would be pleased. He could farm over everything for his +4/+5 gold per tile, and every tile positive food.
     
  2. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    I tried out my changes with Flauros and was pleasantly suprised. It takes longer to set up, but still works very well, and it makes Slavery a much more appealing choice. Of course, Flauros is financial and I was on a flood plain which could account for something. That being said I think that the strategy will still be an appealing choice for non-financials, but will no longer be the sole, obvious choice, as there are so many other civics that you are forced to rule out in order to use it.

    As a further boost to slavery I would rather improve the slave unit (making it equal to a worker in terms of work rate). Free workers are always nice. Alternately maybe just a 20% production bonus across the board?
     
  3. Dayen

    Dayen Chieftain

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    I don't see the strength of Agristocracy as being a problem. Granted I have never (as in ever) used Agrarian, but the relative synergy of the two isn't in any way bad.

    It's not going to win you a cultural dominance campaign. It's not going to serve you very well in winning a military game, even. But it can do both of those things if you are willing to take significantly longer to get to your goal.

    It will never be as effective as, say, Decius' or Sabathiel's Bannor with Theocracy (the Order), Apprenticeship & Conquest. You simply cannot hope to keep up with their experienced military unit production output, and gods help you if they have Form of the Titan and/or a mid-level Altar (as Crusaders, one of their bread-and-butter troop types, count as a Disciple unit). If they switch into Crusade, your game is over.

    Fortunately, the AI does not play this anywhere near as well as a human player might, so you're spared that sort of horrendous apocalyptic scenario outside of multiplayer games.
     
  4. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    My experience has been that Auric can't use Agristocracy with Temples of the Hand. If you're only getting +2commerce per riverside farm then stagnation occurs and Agristocracy is not useful at all. Your results sound good but a test with a non Financial on grasslands could be helpful.

    +20% is a dangerous number when it comes to production. How about +10% production in cities with Esus(presence of slave traders)? Its the worst religion currently and could do with being thrown a bone.
     
  5. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    That's possible, and it synergises with the non-good requirement. However, I think much of the point of the CoE is that you don't need to convert to it. Much of its strength lies in simply founding it and having it in your cities, which I think makes it useful and unique among religions. That beiing said, do not underestimate Shadow riders, especially not in the hands of the Hippus, and also Gibbon is ideal with a civ like the khazad that can't or doesn't want to go down the religion line. Actually adopting CoE is quite a niche strategy, but it's intended to be that way.

    I will try using a non-financial leader on a grassland start next time, but remember that the point of the change is that to achieve the full effect of Aristograrian you're supposed to use it with slavery, something that Auric is easilly accessible for Auric, and other non-financial leaders. It is a bonus of the Financial trait that you can get away with not using Slavery (although they still benefit from it, not a penalty for not having the trait.
     
  6. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Theres been a bunch of threads about this if you search the S&T forum. Playtests have come out strongly in its favour under a wide variety of situations. The big reason was that it can invest in its own economy AND break into Tier 3 technologies like Iron Working ahead of others.
     
  7. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Then why force people to convert to it? Maybe make it a +5% production with Esus even if they're another religion. Of course, what they're doing is giving sight into their cities for the owner of Nox Noctis. What do you want more? A little extra production or safety from the CoE player?
     
  8. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    That's quite interesting actually although does 5% more production really make such a difference in the grand scheme of things? That's one extra hammer in every 20. Maybe bump it up to 10%.

    Of course, the relationship between Esus and Slavery is already represented through the undercouncil's slave buying thing so this could be redundant in that respect. What about Slavery allowing you a ''Slave Market'' building with similar effects as normal markets, but which loose their effects (or better dissappear) if you leave the civic. That way it essentially gives you another market per city, potentially very powerful.
     
  9. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    We're in danger of going offtopic. I think it should be very simple and civic based or Slave Markets passed along to someone who would like it for their modmod.

    Improving CoE gameplay so that a conspiracy element becomes prevalent is a little dream of mine. It would need CoE civs to be better hidden and Nox Noctis built anonymously, and also a risk-reward of whether to allow CoE in your cities.
     
  10. Dayen

    Dayen Chieftain

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    I'm speaking from experience, of course, having roundly crushed my friends' evil empire with Sabathiel not more than a week ago. I'm in the process of doing so again in Fall Further.

    Despite the fact that you insist that "it can invest in its own economy and breaking into tier 3 technologies ahead of others..." you presume, for some reason, that the game is being played in a vacuum. Do you honestly think I go "eh, I'll just let them take advantage of their civics and crush me under research?" What strategist WOULD? No, I take advantage of the fact that I can crank out level 5 archers and plop them down, fortified, on any high-yield squares they may have while I wait for their city to depopulate and then do so with the next city as I have archers to do so with.

    The only counter I've seen be remotely effective is having a mid-tier hero. Throwing waves of axemen at the archers just gets them promoted further, because level 1 and 2 axemen are by no means a match for the archers. Even if you do have the iron weapons promotion.

    I realize that it is tempting to read a spreadsheet, mentally masturbate about the possibilities, then "playtest" it in a few situations where, honestly, it's going to be favorable because you're not playing against someone who is going to exploit the mechanics of tile benefit (or, in occupied tiles, lack thereof) to the same degree. If you're in it to win it with blood, trust me, there are few options better than Bannor, Theocracy (the Order), Apprenticeship & Conquest. (It's not bad with another religion like say CoE and another civ like the Clan; the keys to it are Agg or Chm and above average military unit production infrastructure available.)
     
  11. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Thats a great attitude you got but you're wrong and should read some of the threads about it because all I can say to you would be a C&P of them.

    The fact that you're talking about archers as somehow being good just shows you're not on the same page. If you have to defend then you're losing already.
     
  12. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    Archers could be pretty good if you give them guerilla promotions and stick them on a hill for example. Although I'm speaking only in terms of theory as I rarely use them myself. I can see how they could be effective in Dayen's strategy though. Also, he's not really using themm for defense. He's using them to defend single tiles in his enemy's empire, causing his cities to starve, which seems like a pretty aggressive use of them to me.
     
  13. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    There are of course lots of factors involved and lots of possible counters. But if you're building archers then you're not building axemen. If you're researching Archery then you'd better have a shortage of hills and a surplus of forests or you're failing to research a Religion/Tier 3 units.
     
  14. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    In multiplayer, with opponents that are actually capable of anything reasonably sensible, I would think archers and ranged units would become more important for defending your cities, so not such a waste. Certainly in this situation, where every one could start with city defense 1 and 2 and guerilla and 2 I think they would be very competitive.
     
  15. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Which situation? Turn 80 Guerilla Archers or Turn 160 8XP Archers? The first are not Axemen and the second will get eaten by midgame heroes if they're unsupported. If they are supported then the usual anti-stack tactics apply. You can't occupy territory of an enemy until they're already defeated.
     
  16. Dayen

    Dayen Chieftain

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    Like I said, it requires a civ with above average military unit production (Bannor, for instance, or any civ using the Order) and then a way to gain extra promotions (Aggressive or Charm traits, Form of the Titan, Altar of the Luonnotar, etc).

    I rush to Orders from Heaven myself, since the bonuses from the Order as your state religion are excellent. I can trade Philosophy and Way of the Wise in the interim for techs like Bronze Working and Archery. Granted, RNG doesn't always give you another good race to trade technologies with, but most of the time you're not left wanting.

    Once you're at Way of the Wise you're usually way ahead of the curve religion-wise. You can also usually beat your opponents to the Council of Esus holy city as well, and that provides a truly awesome bonus in multiplayer games (in fact, having the Order holy city isn't nearly as great a benefit long term, although it certainly doesn't hurt).

    I find myself producing two-three units for every one-two my opponents are producing, and they're often much better promoted out of the gate, let alone with a little battle experience under their belts. The Bannor getting leadership bonuses without necessarily having to have a Great Commander in Fall Further just makes it even sillier so far.

    I have no problems with napkin math and even spreadsheet math that proves, empirically, that X or Y is the best thing since sliced bread. I just figure out how to make sliced bread and cover it with butter. Often it does the job just as well, if not better.
     
  17. Monkeyfinger

    Monkeyfinger Deity

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    Can we skip to the "get on one of the FfH MP channels on Hamachi and test this against the board regulars" challenge? From one of the people who still plays MP, of course.
     
  18. Humakty

    Humakty Happy Goblin

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    Monkeyfinger ! Be nice to them ! You know they feel lonely...
     
  19. Ekolite

    Ekolite The Mighty Jungle

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    I think the resounding conclusion of this is that aristocracy is usually the best if you have plenty of flat land next to rivers in your starting location. In more specific cases other strategies are often stronger but they are more situational. Of course like all strategies, Aristgrarian's strength is linked to the map script you use and is not equally strong on all kinds of map.

    This has been proven plenty of times and its not really neccessary to test it again.
     
  20. Senethro

    Senethro Overlord

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    Its interesting to note that Agristocracy is effective on maps that are popular in MP - Pangaea, Inland Sea, Lakes, Erebus.
     

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