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Armies

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. civcivv

    civcivv Warlord

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    I could see Lancers with 5 moves but double move cost for rough terrain, so they are great on open (non marshy) fields, but move as fast as a knight over rough terrain.
     
  2. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I think this is an important point.
    The AI is already pretty clumsy with its siege units, we don't want to make it *too* easy to take out cannon and artillery.

    As was said above, the AI is ok at attacking with high movement units, though it doesn't retreat them to a safe place very well, but its really bad at defending against high movement units.
     
  3. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I agree that the unit's weakness could balance its speed. Forget the AI for the moment - there's plenty of stuff it can't handle! Given that lancers overlap cavalry in a singular way, they make the most operational sense as a specialty unit. Why not make them very fast but very fragile? The tension of having to make sure they get out of range for fear of instant death would be almost as much fun as their added range.
     
  4. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    On the topic of bonuses vs base strength, it can indeed have a remarkably different effect.

    For example, consider the original vanilla 7:c5strength: spearman vs a 12:c5strength: horseman. The Spearman gets +100% so it should outclass the horseman 14 to 12, right? It doesn't work out quite that way though. Consider a situation with just 1 promotion and a great general, both relatively common:

    7 * (1 + 1 + .25 + .2) = 17.2
    12 * (1 + .25 + .2) = 17.4

    This is one reason among others why horsemen were so crazy at CiV's release. :)
     
  5. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    (mispost)
     
  6. rhammer640

    rhammer640 Russian Monk

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  7. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    The idea is terrific, and helps address what a builder with a small defense force can do when suddenly attacked, given the current high price of rushing and upgrading. The question would seem to be how it affects the value of gold in the game.
     
  8. LamaGT

    LamaGT Emperor

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    I really dislike the new unit maintenance system, it has a great base idea(producing and not upgrading, i guess) though it's done quite badly
    First of all the maintenance cost in late game is simply crazy, i didn't even notice as with my mass production of fighters tanks and FL(playing with france) my gold dropped from 500(during golden age) to 350 in very few turns.(actually i build 5 air units including a bomber and 2-3 tanks, then i have some 8 FL)
    The other problem is that i can't really afford to lose precious turns for replacing my military every new era(especially in classical-medieval and medieval-renaissance), so there should be a 25% speed up of units production in my opinion.
    Secondary, while unit maintenance in renaissance is quite affordable, in industrial-modern it becomes unsastainable for mid economies even(100GPT per turn) because it's the era when there are LOTS of new types of units and you really need to have some of them all but here comes the 5-8 and more GPT maintenance for each, and then i simply quit!
    The solution is simple, just leave the maintenance at low levels, then the need of more units will do the trick :D
     
  9. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    LamaGT isn't the first person to have a problem with the recent boost in unit maintenance. Was its purpose to limit the size of big armed forces? Do SP trees like Order and Autocracy ease the problem? If so, I can see being forced to use those trees (rather than Rationalism, for example) as the price for having a large yet affordable armed forces.
     
  10. rhammer640

    rhammer640 Russian Monk

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    If that is the case then i like the system. I think there should be a trade off so that you cant have a super large army and a large science output due to rationalism. It should be a challenge to field a large army, especially in the end of the game. If values need to be tweaked a bit thats fine but I like the idea of having them in the game.
     
  11. LamaGT

    LamaGT Emperor

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    meh i didn't have such a great army, i just have the units to completely cover my two possible fronts and being able to counter attack ASAP.
    the fact that pisses me off is the crazy mantainance for air planes and tanks, i mean these were the main force in WWII! Why can't i afford to have some of them?
     
  12. rhammer640

    rhammer640 Russian Monk

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    I think what thal is going for, (although i may be wrong) is that even though tanks and planes were the most important, there were many many many more infantry units and thus in the game your main army should be foot units and that tanks and planes should be the "special units" that you have to be strategic about.
     
  13. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Right now maintenance is just :c5production:cost / 50, but I can tweak it for individual units if needed.

    Some things to point out:

    • Trading posts yield +50%:c5gold: more than vanilla (Compass/Economics)
    • Coasts yield +100%:c5gold: more (Lighthouse)
    • Most luxury resources have a building giving them +2:c5gold:
    • Customs House gives up to 14:c5gold: on a tile (the Great Merchant improvement)
    • Unit maintenance is reduced by 1/3 with Autocracy, available as soon as you enter the Industrial era.
    I sped up unit production more than 25%. The Arsenal is +50%:c5production: for both land and air units, when in vanilla it's 20% land / 0% air. The Forge is also 25%, up from 15%.
     
  14. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Sounds like you need to raise maintenance costs!
     
  15. LamaGT

    LamaGT Emperor

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    uhm yes actually i forgot about the arsenal:p though, it's quite late in the game and forge can be built only in cities with access to iron, and this quite pisses me off because my main production city (the capital with 34 citizens and still growing quite fast) didn't have any, fortunately the second production city had it but...99 base production in paris weren't fully improved :((also i did a little mess with some files so the mines were all by 3 hammers)
    So my proposal is to make forge an universal building but make it by 20% bonus
    About the maintainance, i was playing on epic, may'be it's because of that? i had 9 GPT on tank and 8 on both artillery and fighter
     
  16. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I've been thinking about changing the Forge from "requires 1 iron nearby" to "consumes 1 iron," so it can be built anywhere.

    Maintenance costs are constant, regardless of game speed. Those 9g tanks and 8g artillery would become 6 and 5 if you get Autocracy. :thumbsup:

    Autocracy is actually a rather useful tree for late-game warfare in these balance mods.

    • -33% reduced maintenance is great since costs are higher now.
    • Populism basically makes your whole army into medics, everyone heals +1hp extra per turn. Stacked with a Medic promo this is 3hp healing per turn in enemy territory.
    • -33% unit purchase cost from Militarism has always been rather good.
    • +100% strategic resource supply is more valuable now that those resources are more scarce.
    • Annexation is better than before (no maintenance for courthouse) and puppeting was nerfed, so the -50%:c5angry: in :c5occupied: policy is rather good.
     
  17. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I like how this reduces the luck factor of where a forge could be built, as well as that the flexibility comes with a price.
     
  18. LamaGT

    LamaGT Emperor

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    may'be it's great but i don't adopt so much social policies in industrial, may'be 1 or 2 max since i don't focus on culture, though i'll give it a try later
     
  19. Joneill

    Joneill Chieftain

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    Do we know how well the AI would handle such a change? Don't want them to spam forges and then only be able to build pikemen because they ran out of iron ;).

    And I actually always liked the original design, that early buildings require the resource to be locally available, while later ones consume the resources - indicating increased trade and better transport in later eras.

    Also, with the current model you actually have to think a bit, how do I turn this iron-city into a production powerhouse to make use of the forge bonus (I'd even like to see the armory as iron-requiring, to further push that kind of early specialisation)? With the proposed change, you'd simply build a forge in one high-production city and are set.
     
  20. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I see your point, and part of me likes the game-by-game randomness of geography dictating the forge location. But turning an iron city into more of a production center is pretty simple - you have x hammers, and the option to build hammer-producing buildings that raise you to y. That's not any different from what I would do in my biggest hammer source. Doing it the way Thal proposed circumvents being stuck with a mediocre forge city, no matter how much you trick it out.
     

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