[R&F] Article Discussion: Cree Nation Headman says he disapproves of Poundmaker's depiction in RnF

[clapyourhands]

Article in question

Thoughts? It is odd that he says no one from the First Nation was contacted this time around, when we know this happened the last game with the Pueblo; although admittedly this was when they were looking for a native speaker. Still, we do know that Firaxis worked directly with some of Poundmaker's descendants when recording the music. The article says the nation plans to contact 2K directly regarding the matter after discussing it with the elders.

At its core his main issue is that the Cree, who fundamentally were not military expansionists in the same vein as colonial powers, are being depicted as such; Cree culture and government are being inaccurately molded into a European model of growth. It's similar to some points people have made here about the "traditional" definition of civilization, and now that the issue has actually come to a head, it might be a good time to re-examine how we evaluate it.

EDIT: This second article from Global also addresses the issue and qualifies many of the opinions, making it more about lack of communication with tribal leaders than the representation itself.

A third local article from Friday with some different quotes and information.

National Post Article

At the request of God of Kings, here is the Change.org petition to exonerate Poundmaker on his charge for treason, one of the issues raised in the articles. It would be a great example of the positive awareness that would result from the Cree's inclusion, especially if Civ is mentioned in the reasoning.

 

[Guandao]

But Native Americans did conquer land from each other?

This was what I was expecting if Firaxis put a North Amerindian people as a Civ. Another Puebloan situation.

Firaxis can't make the Cree incapable of conquering other Civs.

 

[Cerilis]

That's odd, maybe they only spoke with the descendants (and they were okay with it)?

Slightly offtopic, is "First Nation" the official term to use for NA native communities of today or is it something more?

 

[DeutschDachs]

Yikes. I hope they can reach some sort of compromise...

In any case I also hope something like this would not lead Firaxis to give up on giving the Native tribes representation. Most Cree reactions I've seen online have been very positive and supportive of the choice

 

[Guandao]

That's odd, maybe they only spoke with the descendants (and they were okay with it)?

Slightly offtopic, is "First Nation" the official term to use for NA native communities of today or is it something more?

First Nation is a term used by Canadians to refer to Native American peoples.

I'm a little shocked that Firaxis didn't discuss this with the Poundmaker Cree nation officials.

 

[Sagax]

"It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accessing their land," he said.

But.......it doesn’t? I mean have they seen Scythia and Mongolia in this game?

Heck, even the trade route land grab specifically says that it can only grab unoccupied tiles.

 

[Thormodr]

Hmmm...I hope they can reach some form of arrangement.

I think they should have at least consulted with the Native elders beforehand at least as a matter of courtesy and respect. I have found that a little respect goes a long ways with First Nations people.

Hopefully they can patch things up and, ironically enough, make an alliance of sorts.

 

[DeutschDachs]

The devs might need to demonstrate that there are alternative ways to play that do not involve military conquest.

Although culture and religious victory both kind of perpetuate one way of life conquering all others I suppose. To space, Poundmaker!

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Piapot and the Young Dog band seemed to be interested in grabbing land from other tribes.

 

[Phrozen]

Piapot and the Young Dog band seemed to be interested in grabbing land from other tribes.

They all did because it is human nature to do so.

 

[Guandao]

Conquest is not unique to Europeans. I bet it has happened on every continent that humans have lived on, just in slightly different forms. The Cree might have taken land from other Native peoples, but this was forgotten in the history.

Maybe Firaxis should have gone with the Iroquois again, they definitely conquered people.

 

[Gabhar]

Complaining about your nation's portrayal in civ isn't anything new. More seriously, I would guess 2K/Firaxis will be disappointed but ultimately won't see it fit to change anything. With the Pueblo they didn't really get past the concept stage, and even then they likely discussed proceeding anyway internally.

 

[Guandao]

The question on my mind is "why didn't Firaxis consult with the leaders of the Poundmaker Cree Nation about their portrayal in the game?"

 

[Cerilis]

The question on my mind is "why didn't Firaxis consult with the leaders of the Poundmaker Cree Nation about their portrayal in the game?"

Maybe the answer is: "Because they discussed it with the descendants of Poundmaker"?

 

[Duuk]

The question on my mind is "why didn't Firaxis consult with the leaders of the Poundmaker Cree Nation about their portrayal in the game?"

Likely for the same reason that they didn't consult with Vladimir Putin about the way the Russian Empire is portrayed.
I'm also reasonably certain they didn't interview Barack Obama (at the time) about how to portray the United States.

They might have gotten Prince Harry to respond about England. Actually, I can see Elizabeth II responding, too. She's kind of awesome.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

The question on my mind is "why didn't Firaxis consult with the leaders of the Poundmaker Cree Nation about their portrayal in the game?"

They don't normally do this. The reason they contacted tribal representatives with the Pueblo is because they got stonewalled when looking for voice actors.

 

[Sagax]

The question on my mind is "why didn't Firaxis consult with the leaders of the Poundmaker Cree Nation about their portrayal in the game?"

Because they didn’t have to ask the Shoshone

 

[Eric Guimarães]

 

[Gabhar]

The question on my mind is "why didn't Firaxis consult with the leaders of the Poundmaker Cree Nation about their portrayal in the game?"

Probably simply because they didn't have to in order to find the people they were looking for. I know the portrayal of indigenous American peoples is a sensitive matter but in principle it can be likened to consulting the Spanish government about Spain's portrayal.

 

[Mobfire]

It perpetuates this myth that First Nations had similar values that the colonial culture has, and that is one of conquering other peoples and accessing their land

I wholeheartedly disagree with this. First of all, the Cree in Civ 6 have an obvious focus on trade and alliances, not of conquering others. If anything, their portrayal serves to combat the noble savage stereotypes that plague depictions of indigenous tribes in media.

Secondly, let's not pretend the Cree did nothing but hold hands in a circle and sing Kumbaya. Just like any other group of people from any other time period they were involved in their fair share of wars, battles, and conquests, notably against the Blackfoot Confederacy as well as the Northwest Rebellion. In fact, I would say pretending the Cree didn't do those things and changing their design to remove what little militaristic aspects there are would be even worse, caving in to a romanticized and fictional stereotype of native peoples instead of portraying them accurately to history.

Hollywood has done a job for many decades of portraying Indigenous people in a certain way that has been very harmful.

True, but Civ 6's depiction of them is anything but. Personally, I'm more than satisfied with how Firaxis designed the civ, focusing on the extensive trade networks (i.e. the Cree involvement in the fur trade) and alliances (i.e. how the Cree created the Iron Confederacy, a powerful entity for the mutual benefit of all those involved, as well as Poundmaker's work securing peace with the Canadian government). It really feels that Milton Tootoosis is grasping at straws here.