Ascension I: Willem van Oranje (Deity)

[Ecori]

Hello fellow cIV'ers!

I'm a long time Immortal player trying to take the final step up to Deity. It has proven extremely difficult, so I decided to try and post a game on the forums and humbly ask for your help and input and point out my errors.

I will be aiming to play and post a round a day over the summer.

So here's the settings:
Leader: Willem van Oranje
Difficulty: Deity
Map: Continents
Settings: standard size, normal speed, no huts, no events

And the start:

This is the second start I generated (the first giving me the cow glitch).

Pretty green with lots of forests and rivertiles. We have jungle to the North. My initial thoughts are to move the warrior 1NE to check for additional seafood. If he finds some then SiP and build WB -> Worker otherwise 1SW. What do you think?
Research Mining -> BW unless there are Cows 2S1W.

Save is attached, feel free to shadow, but please keep spoilers in spoiler tags

 

[sossos]

I would prefer to go out to innerland for bigger territory. Though on continent, blocking might not be a big problem, I still want William to be away from war or only involved in limited wars in the first two ages. 7 cities with beelining lib/astronomy is a favorite model for the CRE/FIN leader. On the other hand, the 4 tiles are too mean to spam settlers and UB cannot be built at the SIP spot, so there is not much to abandon.

The jungle to the north may mean that your enemy is mostly at your east.

More setting details can help (sea level? climate? AI#?) to make decision. Or what can the warrior see if he goes SE?

 

[Killroyan]

The UB can be build anywhere as long as it has 1 water/river tile in the inner circle as far as I know. You do not need a river for the dike. So settling in place is definitely a good option if there is sea food in the north. 5F/3C tiles are tasty ones.

 

[lymond]

You can build Dike SIP which is probably the best thing here unless the warrior reveals something worthy of a move, which I doubt

 

[Ecori]

Round 1: Turn 1-10

@sossos: all other settings are default.

I started by moving the warrior 1NE and spotted this!

SiP it is

5 food resources, 12 forests and 6 riverside grasslands! Production is low though. Could be either a GP farm or science city. Not to sure yet as to what I prefer.

Work began on a WB working a forested grass hill and research was set to Mining. I sent the Warrior North to scout a good city site using 1 or 2 of Amsterdams seafood.

On turn 5 I met Hannibal, he's up to the North

On turn 8 I met Nappy from the south. Not the two best neighbours.

On turn 10 my WB finished and I stopped to recap.

The North:

There is a pretty good production site on the unforested grass hill, that can share some food with Amsterdam.

The Center:

I have to explore around the Ivory. Land looks okay.

My main question is what to build next? I'm thinking grow to size 2 using the fish and building a second WB, then a Worker. Keep working Fish + grass hill after size two or 2x grass hill?

 

[sossos]

It seems you are sandwiched by the two AIs. Both of them are easy to DOW. Good luck.

I'll build worker then chop/Whip WB. BW can be available just 1 turn after the worker comes out(12 turns later), so I'll focus more on hammer/food instead of commerce. The investment on worker can get me returned in 12 turns, which is a little little little bit faster than the weighted average of the pop increase(12 turns) and fishing boat(15 turns).

It's good to see a close elephant. Currently I'm still inclined to expand to the south per the visible resource and river. Marble is attractive, but it's too far and I'm not sure whether it can be used under war threat.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

This looks like a nice start to show the power of the Elephant, and Catapult.

 

[Ecori]

It seems you are sandwiched by the two AIs. Both of them are easy to DOW. Good luck.

I'll build worker then chop/Whip WB. BW can be available just 1 turn after the worker comes out(12 turns later), so I'll focus more on hammer/food instead of commerce. The investment on worker can get me returned in 12 turns, which is a little little little bit faster than the weighted average of the pop increase(12 turns) and fishing boat(15 turns).

It's good to see a close elephant. Currently I'm still inclined to expand to the south per the visible resource and river. Marble is attractive, but it's too far and I'm not sure whether it can be used under war threat.

I really like the worker -> chop WB idea. Every small bit adds up.

I think early expansion will be to the South and East. Marble is too far away imo. Need to scout more in that direction.

 

[Ecori]

This looks like a nice start to show the power of the Elephant, and Catapult.

An Elepult rush sounds like a good way out of a bad sandwich.

Will take another look at AZs youtube channel. IIRC he has done quite a few of those rushes in his Lets Play vids.

 

[TiglathPileser]

It's unfortunate you decided to explore as far as you did northwards, the land south of your capital is the obvious place to expand into with all those rivers and isn't being forgbusted at all. With the slow fishing start I'd forget about a second wb for now, grow to size 2 on a warrior and build a worker to chop out fogbuster warriors before the barbs become too much of a problem.

As for general immortal to deity transition tips -

-Overlap with your capital. Really important to have 3 or 4 cities just outside your capitals bfc on deity, sharing any excess food your capital can't work and developing lots of juicy cottage tiles early for a buearu cap to milk later. I would go this way as Willem is financial and multiple financial towns in the early ADs are really far too good to miss out on.
-REX or war like your life depends on it. Multiple whip anger in your secondry cities is a good thing on deity.
-Decide on a grand plan early on. At immortal you can easily get away with making it up as you go along, teching for trades and expanding or warring on opportunity. This won't work well on deity. The margin for error is so small that you need to pick one of the best concerted plans demanded by the situation and stick to it. At some point you have to get well ahead of the game to win because the AI will always catch and pass you.

Good luck...

 

[GKey]

Does anyone play this? Map is quite interesting.

Spoiler :

Hannibal decided to be religion-wonder-tech whore.

HA rushed SB. Wish I had Feudalism now. He would sure give in this turn.

 

[Ecori]

It's unfortunate you decided to explore as far as you did northwards, the land south of your capital is the obvious place to expand into with all those rivers and isn't being forgbusted at all. With the slow fishing start I'd forget about a second wb for now, grow to size 2 on a warrior and build a worker to chop out fogbuster warriors before the barbs become too much of a problem.

As for general immortal to deity transition tips -

-Overlap with your capital. Really important to have 3 or 4 cities just outside your capitals bfc on deity, sharing any excess food your capital can't work and developing lots of juicy cottage tiles early for a buearu cap to milk later. I would go this way as Willem is financial and multiple financial towns in the early ADs are really far too good to miss out on.
-REX or war like your life depends on it. Multiple whip anger in your secondry cities is a good thing on deity.
-Decide on a grand plan early on. At immortal you can easily get away with making it up as you go along, teching for trades and expanding or warring on opportunity. This won't work well on deity. The margin for error is so small that you need to pick one of the best concerted plans demanded by the situation and stick to it. At some point you have to get well ahead of the game to win because the AI will always catch and pass you.

Good luck...

Thanks for the your advise. Especially your point on a grand plan is something I should focus on. On immortal I often had a tendency to "wing it", but I need to focus more on deity.

I completely agree that I shouldn't have scouted that far north and concentrated more on the south instead. Luckily my scout survived the next round to do some more scouting

 

[Ecori]

Round 2: Turn 10-26

Another short round. I want to really focus on the start. May be the first couple of rounds are going to be a bit short and borring perhaps.

After finding Hannibal far up North I swung my warrior back south. Luckily he didn't encounter wild animals or barbarians. He managed to find Nappys second city just a few tiles south of my capital.

I think I have pretty much decided on an Elepult war with Napoleon.

Research went BW -> Wheel (Pottery next)

After finishing the WB I started on a worker as suggested by sossos and chopped a second WB. Here's the pic at turn 26 where I stopped the round:

I have quite a few things to consider:
1) Settling the Ivory ASAP. I'm hoping my warrior can scout out the site.
2) Barb defense. I don't think I will be needing much in the mainland since Napoleon is so close. North and west could be a problem. There is a nice jungle choke spot to defend for incoming barbarians. Only Copper I found is way up North by the Marble.
3) Next build. Atm. I have 2 WB, 1 Worker and 1 Warrior. I think I have some different approaches here;
- chop a settler at size 2
- chop a worker at size 2
- grow on a warrior (for fogbusting and barb defense) while improving Rice and green hill.
4) Oracle. All those forests screams to be chopped. Should I go for Oracle? What are the timings for it on Deity?

Your inputs are greatly appreciated.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Another short round. I want to really focus on the start. May be the first couple of rounds are going to be a bit short and borring perhaps.

Well, you're right to play short sets. Early game decisions are game warping.

I have quite a few things to consider:
1) Settling the Ivory ASAP. I'm hoping my warrior can scout out the site.
2) Barb defense. I don't think I will be needing much in the mainland since Napoleon is so close. North and west could be a problem. There is a nice jungle choke spot to defend for incoming barbarians. Only Copper I found is way up North by the Marble.
3) Next build. Atm. I have 2 WB, 1 Worker and 1 Warrior. I think I have some different approaches here;
- chop a settler at size 2
- chop a worker at size 2
- grow on a warrior (for fogbusting and barb defense) while improving Rice and green hill.
4) Oracle. All those forests screams to be chopped. Should I go for Oracle? What are the timings for it on Deity?

Your inputs are greatly appreciated.

0) Pottery next does make sense. You have plenty of discounts and river tiles and are FIN.
1) If no food appears east of the ivory, then consider settling 1S2W of it so you can work the farmed bananas (and share 4 grassland riverside cottages).
2) Agreed. 3 or 4 warriors should be able to do the job.
3) I think it's too early to start on a settler: you'll have 7 (!) food surplus from next turn so you'll grow in a very short time (3 turns?). Growing to size 4 would take a very short time as well, like 7 or 8 turns.
Growing to size 4 would just leave you time to improve the hills you're sitting on and connect Amsterdam to the river (road 1SE) before resuming with chops. Stagnating now would reduce your overall production and also lose you the commerce from the bananas (minor but...).
If you chose to grow to 4, don't delay growth by working the mine, unless it is necessary to complete a warrior
4) 1600BC Oracle is a real gamble on Deity. 1900BC is pretty safe. 1800BC is a usual target date (or isn't it?). I'd rather prioritize getting to Writing asap and securing 4 cities, in your position. If you're going for Elephants, you'll need a (strong) production basis.
5) cottaging will be very intensive on worker turns : 1 turn to move on a forest, 3 to chop, 4 to cottage: that makes 8 turns to improve a tile! Better not delay the 2nd worker for too long. 2nd worker before settler is a tricky question. Kinda depends on the timing of Pottery and your total pop (aka number of workable tiles). Settler first does make sense, I think, but the argument for worker first (after growing a lill', I mean) could be made.

 

[Ecori]

Round 2.5: Turn 26-30

After BICs advice I was eager to play a bit further.

Plan was:
- Grow to size 4, then settler.
- Finish the mine, then road 1SE of Amsterdam and Chop a forest
- Explore to the east. If no food then settle 1S2W of the ivory
- Skip the Oracle for an all out Elepult war on Nappy

However I only played 4 turns before I had to stop to rethink my situation as several positive things happened

First I met this guy from the east!

Really late to run into him - I was starting to think we were just the three of us on our continent.

And suddenly the diplo situation changes a whole lot:

Nappy: worst enemy of Sitting Bull
Sitting Bull: worst enemy of Nappy

I explored some more to the east and found the land surrounding the ivory to be pretty good

I am thinking of splitting the site up into 2 cities. First city 2S of the Ivory to grap grass Cow+Ivory+Copper and one city 4E of Amsterdam to grap dry Rice+Sugar+a huge amount of hills. In total I think I could settle 5 cities peacefully this way placing the last 2 North and West of Amsterdam sharing its food.

The question is whether to still go for an Elepult rush or make the gamble that Nappy will declare on SB.

Propably Pottery -> (Hunting)AH -> Writing

Hopefully the next round will be a little longer

 

[TiglathPileser]

My 2C on settling this map:

If you want to elepult or backstab Nappy you should probably settle and develop no more than 4 good cities with good food to whip infrastructure and cottage tiles get you to construction and hbr quickly. Forget about mines, its all about whip cycles on your seafood and cottages. Grabbing an early great scientist or two for an academy or math bulb is also valuable and very easy to do with cheap libraries. I'd forget the dry rice spot as all it has going for it is that 4F tile, you won't get any meaningful return on a city there any time soon (or settle it on the plains hill 4E1S as your fourth settle at the very most).

I agree that 2S of the ivory is probably the best second spot here, even though you'll incur slightly higher maintenence than a more usual second spot nearer your capital - another reason to avoid the dry rice. Instead, go for the nearby coastal spot 2S3W of your capital as your third settle. You can use it to work the wet rice you're about to irrigate and 2 scientists for an early academy, plus whip cycles on the 2 cottage tiles from your capitals bfc. Maybe even cottage the bananas. 4th settle - something to the north to share the capitals seafood and wnw cottage tile. Chop and cottage 3 more tiles for your capital to work with the seafood and whip in cycles.

For this you'll need lots of workers, 4 or 5 I guess. Once you've cottaged with them they can prechop in preparation for math. Tech path - writing, math, construction, hbr. Sailing is nice but probably slows you down too much unless you can trade for it. Attack date needs to be 500BC or earlier if you can manage it.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Oh, blue circle! I hadn't realized you could farm the wet rice...


Elepult... seems like a fair plan to me. Especially since Napoleon is so close to you and an unreliable neighbour.
Having an extra AI on your landmass is rather an advantage : if you take one out, there will remain an extra trade partner.
There's nothing wrong with just teching up, though. That's probably worth mentionning. Teching up is always the safest bet. Relying on production can be hit or miss. If you decide to REx, you can probably aim for 6+ cities (depends how far Sitting Bull is / how successfully you can block Nappy from going east).

That said, you can indeed consider settling 5 cities and still head for Elephants. Not sure what's best:
- a 4 cities set up gets probably faster to Construction/HBR but then may lack some production;
- 5 cities gives better production but extra maintenance will slow you down in such a short period of time. However, with relatively low happy cap and high food potential, 5th city may shine.


Regarding your spots :
Foreword: Securing the copper in the 2nd ring is always risky. Willem is creative but if Nappy surrounds the tile with multiple cities, he may steal it from you rather soon (also, Judaism isn't founded yet, right? Holy city might end up on your continent).

The capital may share its western clams with a northern city. That's not a real hurry since you'll have plenty of time assessing Hannibal's progresses towards you.
A helper city to the south west might take the rice/bananas and grow cottages for the cap. Not a real hurry either, since it neither grabs land nor resources.

Now the East. Priority since you compete with Nappy, there.
Land isn't uncovered: there is no need to decide right now where you will settle.
Setup I'd consider from what we see is:
- City 2 1NE of the copper, grabbing the cows. You need to connect the capital to the river and wait for a border pop to have the cities connected. Quite minimalistic.
- City 3 on the plains hills, 1NE of ivory, 1NW of the rice.
Both spots have very nice production for a rush.
They're basically the ones you proposed but 1S for each. Same maintenance, better land grab. Worst point is that you don't get to share much tiles with the capital, making it harder to grow cottages before getting Monarchy.

Other spots to consider :
- 1NE of the rice, 1S of the Sugar. That is towards Sitting Bull and might be fine as a 3rd city. Depending on what's in that jungle.
- Whole line 2S of the cows. Dependent on resources.
These spots are further away and would require backfilling cities to be viable.


Worker or settler at size 4 ?
Worker at size 4, cons:
You will delay your 2nd city;
Runs the risk of Nappy settling his 4th city before you settle your 2nd (losing you the copper spot?);
More early chops = less chops into military.
Worker at size 4, pros:
3rd city will come faster (unless you go Settler->Settler);
More worker turns means you'll start cottaging earlier and you'll get more production from chops.

Maybe worker at size 4 is a luxury you can't afford... I don't know. Losing spots may not be bad if it forces you to settle more compact, yet fine cities.


Don't take my word for granted on this post
I'm trying not to be a drag but you never know...

 

[GKey]

I would not risk copper site by settling 2 tiles North from it. Either Napoleon or SB can settle 1SE of Copper and deny it from you.
My choice - first city 1NE of Copper - secure resource and block ivory to yourself. Then I would settle north city ASAP to share seafood before it wasted. Plain hill/dry rice/Ivory city after that. Not bad city after all, it will have sugar and can work 1 riverside cottage for capital.

Edit: Ups Crosspost with BiC.

 

[TiglathPileser]

Remember Willem is creative. You probably won't lose the copper if you settle 2N1W quickly enough. And anyway copper is nice but not vital for the rush. The savings on maintenece and getting the happy from the ivory quicker make 2N1W a much better spot. Especially if you are ignoring the dry rice site as I would. Sugar, especially jungle sugar is worthless and there is no reason to settle it for the ivory when you can grab that with the other city.

 

[GKey]

If copper will be in the inner circle of neighbor city, you will have just a few turns to work it before you lose it.