1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Asian Colonization (Pure Fantasy) Development thread

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Creation & Customization' started by Kao'chai, Oct 25, 2008.

  1. Kao'chai

    Kao'chai Newbie in Modding

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Manila
    I would want to implement a Asian Colonization ,complete with junks, seals ships and imperial artillery.Rather than Europe colonizing asia , I would want all the asian powers to colonize the new world . So in order to construct such mod , I have asianify the game , so I need a lot help especially with the units. Suggestions are very welcome , any form of help is very appreciated


    Spoiler :
    New Terrain types
    Countryside for tea
    ??? for silk

    New Resource
    Spirituality replaces crosses
    Tea
    Silk
    Porcelain
    Rice
     
  2. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2004
    Messages:
    12,316
    I'd go with India instead of Tibet
    Mongolia seems like a long shot... although that depends on the time period. I guess if its an alternate History where the mongol empire never quite defeated china but just got control over the northern regions. That's probably the best way to go about it
     
  3. Infantry#14

    Infantry#14 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,580
    very interesting if you have asians colonizing in the west and europeans in the east coast.

    Ideas:

    Military units: (Rebalance against Europeans)
    Cannons - Str 2
    Pikeman - Str 2 +100% vs Cavalry
    Crossbowman - Str 2, Start with Drill 1 and Drill 2 (Civ 4)
    Cavalry w/o guns - Str 3 Start with Flanking

    If you can trade/steal guns from Europeans or Indians, then Crossbow upgrades to musketman with str 3 and cavalry to str 4

    If you want Unique land units:
    China: Cho-ku-nu replace crossbow: collateral damage
    Japan: Samurai replace pikeman: Str 3 and drill 1
    India: Elephants (in addition to cavalry): Str 5; cannot enter swamp, jungles, forests, mountains

    Mother Country goods:
    - silk
    - tea
    - porcelain
     
  4. Kao'chai

    Kao'chai Newbie in Modding

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Manila
    ^actually I was thinking of a pure asian colonization , but that works too.........

    sorry forgot
    Goods :
    plain - silk (replaces cotton) > silk robes
    grassland - tea (replaces tobacco) > ?
    Marsh - Mandarin ? > ?
    tundra - wool (replaces fur) > coat

    Jade replaces silver
    Buddhism replaces crosses
     
  5. Huayna Capac357

    Huayna Capac357 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2007
    Messages:
    8,194
    Location:
    Boston, Massachusetts
    Maybe Tamerlane or Arughtai for the Mongols...

    Japan? Maybe Hideyoshi or make one up.

    Siam? Idk...

    Indonesia? Maybe some admiral or someone (there must be one. They're an ISLAND chain)

    India? How about that guy Gavin Menzies claims came w/ Zheng He's fleet to New Zealand. I believe his name was Mohan Shakir or something to that effect. I will check it and get back to you.
     
  6. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Just a passenger

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    Messages:
    21,833
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne
    This guy and this guy could be the Indian leaders.

    The Japanese leader could be Hasekura Tsunenaga. The Siamese one could be Kosa Pan.

    And, perhaps add the Ottomans and the Persians as well. The Ottomans had a large navy operating from Algiers to Acheh in the 16th century, so colonisation for them was not too improbable, had they prevailed in the Mediterranean and secure access to the Atlantic.
     
  7. Kao'chai

    Kao'chai Newbie in Modding

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    481
    Location:
    Manila
    ^Thanky you , but it would be hard to combine with the east asian features , well let's see
     
  8. Felzor

    Felzor Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    47
    My history is a little foggy, but didn't the Chinese already have rudimentary firearms by the 1400 and 1500s? They weren't standardized in the army because they weren't necessary to defeat China's enemies. Crossbows did the trick... but it seems to me that some kind of musket-wielding unit could have certain strategic advantages against the natives.
     
  9. Lubricus

    Lubricus Explorer

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    98
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    If you want some semblance of history, maybe you should use the nations existing in East Asia at the start of the colony era, like Ming (instead of China), Manchu, Khmer, Ayutthaya, Dai Viet, Champa, Atjeh, Brunei, Malacca and Ryukyu?
     
  10. veBear

    veBear Slumerican Citizen

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    2,612
    Location:
    Norway
    You surly got the right idea. I think that's the most realistic at the time. But i would like to add one more civ, New Japan, under the leaders Oda Nobunaga and Toyotmi Hideyoshi. Also add a Samurai and the Ashigaru Pikemen as special units for New Japan. And remember one thing, even long before Tokugawa ruled the Japanese had the most powerful, gunpowder based units in Asia.
    Also the Japanese leaders fellow trait could be Loyal, who make the king more friendly to you so you don't get as much taxes as the other civs.
    Oda Nobunaga could be Imperialistic, which makes the cities grow faster and allows them to speed up the production of the Colonist unit
    The last trait for Toyotomi Hideyoshi you have to find out for yourself.
    Their color should be Dark Orange(as you see at the text)

    Edit: Added last sentence
    Edit2: Wrong spelling, from Ashiguri Pikeman to Ashigaru Pikemen
    Edit3: Spotted a wrong spelling
     
  11. holdenhk

    holdenhk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    14
    Considering the proximity to the Pacific Ocean, the Far Eastern nations/powers seem the obvious choice. However, if we look at the colonizing ambitions or capacity among Asian states in the colonial era, many of these choices seem rather unlikely. For sure China, the superpower, had both the technology, means, and willingness to explore, and possibly colonize, the new world. The Mongols speciality was rather land conquest than naval colonization, although their naval ventures were significant, e.g. because of them the word 'kamikaze' started its career. So they could be counted, for sure. As far as other players are concerned, considering how conspicuous Arabian merchants were everywhere in Asia, and how successful they were in spreading their culture and religion, the next choice should be some Arabic nation (having a combination of trade and religious traits). The other nations/states do add more diversity and flavor to the game, but putting them on the same level with the Chinese, the Mongols, and the Arabs, would be a bit too far removed from reality (unless you could think of balancing this, giving some advantage to those big guys, such as more trading options in their native country screens or a much faster flow of new colonists, etc.).
     
  12. holdenhk

    holdenhk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    14
    The Chinese did have firearms and rocket weapons even before the period you mention, yet, as you say they didn't feel the need to introduce them on a large scale. The weapons included fire lances, hand cannons, multiple-arrow rocket launchers. The earliest form of a cannon originated in China because of the simple fact that a bamboo stem was naturally designed to the barrel. Even though China did not develop any sophisticated metal-barrel cannons, for sure its knowledge of metal casting was adequate and preceeded the European achievements by a few centuries.

    A short info on such weapons can be found at:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_lance
     
  13. IIDX

    IIDX Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2008
    Messages:
    39
    Scrap Mongolia.

    But for Japan , the king should be Ieyasu Tokugawa , with Masamune Date (who had a fond obsession with western culture) be the fictional colonization leader for Japan.

    He needs a similar trait to mercantalism though, he was one of the very few to embrace European trade and culture, so.. his side ability could be of something similar to that of Peter's of the Dutch.

    To add onto it, why not make the base trait for the Japanese more Militaristic, they are a warring civilization are they not? So , allow them the ability of "Brave" or "Tempered" , in which the Japanese are trained in the art of war, encouraging players who play as them in Colonization to be more aggressive. Basically, Level 1 Veterans and Level 1 Drill to all Japanese units (With the exception of converted natives.)

    The Japanese would start off with one merchantman (Courtesy of the Dutch who historically DID trade with the Japanese back in those days.) , a Saika Footman (Riflemen) , and one Peon.
     
  14. Lubricus

    Lubricus Explorer

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    98
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    For sure! "Mongolia" didn't exist as a nation at the time we're talking about. The Mongol empire dissolved into its "successor states", like Uzbekh Khaganate, Crimea, Nogai and so on, long before America was discovered. And none of those were seafaring.

    Ming (or China, as I'm sure it will be called...), Japan, Manchu, Korea and Dai Viet seem like the most realistic nations to me. Brunei and Malacca might be added, but both of them were much less developed than their northern competitors. Smaller states like Champa, Sulu and Atjeh would never have been in a position to colonise. Ayutthaya were a bit too far west, I think. If an Indian power were to be considered, I'd recommend Vijayanagar for its position both in time and power.

    Edit: I forgot about the Khmer Empire. Even though it dwindled in influence during the 16th century, it was a major power in Southeast Asia for quite some time.
     
  15. veBear

    veBear Slumerican Citizen

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    2,612
    Location:
    Norway
    I totally agree

    I agree, and i think we also should add Oda_Nabunaga as a colinist leader (he never colonized in his own, but he was the first to unite the country of Japan, even befor Tokugawa)

    I agree, but i think we could make a new trait for the Japanese civs called Loyal, who grants the colonist's one defensive and one aggressive promotion. Militaristic would be more fit to an extra on Oda Nabunaga

    Once again i agree, except of one thing, Militaristic should be the trait of Oda Nabunaga, as said before in this post. I think the Japanese should be Loyal, as if you look at their history this will fit them more. This is also said before in this post.

    I agree here too, but also the Japanese should have the ability to train a samurai. Also the Ashigaru Pikemen would be a good replace for the Pikeman

    My idea of the Japanese color is Dark Orange, and i hope it will fit in the game.

    Edit: Added link
    Edit2: Added edit message and last sentence
     
  16. IIDX

    IIDX Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2008
    Messages:
    39
    Wouldn't be historically accurate. Tokugawa was a squire of Nobunaga, along with Hideyoshi but couldn't realize his ambition without being 6'5d by Akechi in Honnoji. It makes sense for Tokugawa to reign since he had taken on the thrown of Japan after seizing it from Mitsunari Akechi, one of Hideyoshi's retainers after he had died.
     
  17. holdenhk

    holdenhk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2006
    Messages:
    14
    Talking about being historically accurate, didn't the Russians colonize parts of North America from this direction? It was not long before the US declaration of independence, though.
    I wouldn't give up the Mongols so easily because when compared to the other 'powers', only China had a similar potential to conquest. Their colonizing capacity was rarther mediocre (the Mongols as a nation were not very numerous), yet precisely because of this they would be forced to conquer/subjugate the natives (as they did everywhere they went). Although they do predate the age of colonization, they are not that far on the time-scale - Tamerlane died in 1405, and the dynasty he founded survived in India (which he conquered) until 19th century. Since we are talking about some alternate history here, the same thing could have happened in the New World.
    And the most important the Mongols had was, IMHO, the character. None of the Asian nations had been better fit for conquest/colonization ventures, and none has been since.
     
  18. Lubricus

    Lubricus Explorer

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2008
    Messages:
    98
    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Sure, we are talking about alternative history. But the question is how alternate. The Mongols did not have a seafaring tradition at all, and even the Timurids did not become a sea power. It is a too big stretch, IMO. We might as well imagine Tibet colonising America...
     
  19. IIDX

    IIDX Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2008
    Messages:
    39
    Mongolians HAET Sea. Kublai Kahn proved that.
     
  20. veBear

    veBear Slumerican Citizen

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    2,612
    Location:
    Norway
    I know that Oda Nabunaga was before Tokugawa, but i think he deserves to be a leader, as he was the one who expanded the territory of his beloved country Japan. And also, if you look at history you will see that the Japanese were very loyal to their lords. This is some of what made them feared warriors across Asia.

    Edit: Wrong writing
     

Share This Page