"Asian guys in my show? Not gonna happen!"

[schlaufuchs]

As hard as people (literally) fought (and died) to eliminate the common usage of the Confederate flag? I doubt it And yet you find it OK to ...

Whatevs...

I'm still waiting for you to connect the Confederate flag to the topic of Asians within tv or film.

However, I wonder if it's okay for some people to use a pejorative word for ethnicity, then wouldn't it be acceptable for all to use it? It's why the return of certain words was very unwelcome and opened that door.

No, because words mean different things when different people use them. The n-word as it originally existed was a word white people used to remind black people of their status - they will never succeed, no matter what happens to them they will always be less than the white man. When you, as a white person, use that word, that is what you are saying. "I am better than black people". When a black person uses that word what he is doing is acknowledging the system as it exists and telling it to [copulate] right the [copulate] off. They are embracing adversity and vowing to overcome it through sheer force of will and awesomeness. When a black person uses the n-word they are rejecting the status quo that white people have established for them and are forging a destiny for themselves and by themselves.

It always strikes me as funny when white people complain about the double standard - that black people are allowed to use this one word that white people can't. It's unfair! 1) when are you as a white person ever going to need to use that word? What the [copulation] are you complaining about? When you enter into a situation where you are being systematically oppressed and need to rebel against the system, then maybe you too can use that word. I'll wait. 2) oh boo hoo. you can't use one word (that you should have no business using anyway). At least you don't have to worry about being more likely to get shot by police. Or being more likely to get tickets and jail time for minor offenses. Or making less money. Or having a harder time getting hired for jobs. Or having a hard time dating other ethnicities. Or just generally being viewed as lesser by other people. [Copulate] off.


NSFW: Truth

Spoiler :

Link to video.

 

[warpus]

Isn't there a rather large difference betwee n-----------r and n-----a ?

The first is derogatory and as far as I know isn't really used by black people all that much. (Although I am basing that on anecdotal experience only)

The second one has become to mean dude, brother, mate, etc.

I'm no linguist, but.. that's what my perception of these 2 words is.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Isn't there a rather large difference betwee n-----------r and n-----a ?

The first is derogatory and as far as I know isn't really used by black people all that much. (Although I am basing that on anecdotal experience only)

The second one has become to mean dude, brother, mate, etc.

I'm no linguist, but.. that's what my perception of these 2 words is.

Well sorta. They're the same word, but mean different things in different contexts. Black people took the word and began using it as a form of endearment as a means of rebellion against the white male establishment. White people just get freaked out because they don't want the status quo (from which they benefit every minute of their lives) to change, and are fearful of any challenge to or rejection of that status quo.

 

[Crackerbox]

I find it interesting that you think it's only the N word. It's homosexuals using the Q word or even the F word. There are younger Latinos and Asians using pejorative words that older generations despise as well.

Perhaps Richard Pryor began the phenomena with the release of his comedy albums in the Seventies, but in the Eighties...several groups seized old pejoratives to "reclaim them".

The F word for homosexuals is particularly bad since it has to do with the practice of burning them.

Using these words today, especially within the context of the postmodern period (and not a period drama or a historical film), is entirely inappropriate. I see this happen with Asians in media, which is the topic, right?

 

[Sommerswerd]

I'm still waiting for you to connect the Confederate flag to the topic of Asians within tv or film.

Excuse me?? Here you go, post #251.

The first mention of it in this thread was Tim in post #232, but it was incidental to a separate point, indeed his point would have been the same without even mentioning the flag. But then in the next post #233 you gave an unnecessary defense of the CSA flag followed up in this post #236 with another completely unnecessary full-throated diatribe in defense of the flag. You then go on to continue ranting in defense of the flag in posts #242, and #243, complete with videos.

You posted about it 4 times before I even mentioned it. I mentioned it once, in post #246 responding to you and then only the 2nd time in post #251 (again responding to you) and I was completely on-topic addressing Asians in TV directly.

Spoiler :

What's even more hilarious is that I originally put both posts into #251 but then split them up to try to stay on topic and keep my post from being too long.

You are the one who steered the discussion into a debate over it, then complain that we are "off topic" when your misrepresentations and faulty arguments are exposed. Puh-leese

However, I wonder, if it's okay for some people to use a pejorative word for ethnicity, then wouldn't it be acceptable for all to use it? It's why the return of certain words was very unwelcome and opened that door.

This statement shows that you fully understand one of the concepts behind why the Confederate battle flag is so offensive... yet once again you refuse to appreciate concepts when applied to anything but your own pet-issues.

 

[schlaufuchs]

I find it interesting that you think it's only the N word. It's homosexuals using the Q word or even the F word. There are younger Latinos and Asians using pejorative words that older generations despise as well.

Perhaps Richard Pryor began the phenomena with the release of his comedy albums in the Seventies, but in the Eighties...several groups seized old pejoratives to "reclaim them".

The F word for homosexuals is particularly bad since it has to do with the practice of burning them.

The same logic applies. It's about telling the white (cis) male establishment to [copulate] off.

 

[Crackerbox]

Excuse me?? Here you go, post #251.

The first mention of it in this thread was Tim in post #232, but it was incidental to a separate point, indeed his point would have been the same without even mentioning the flag. But then in the next post #233 you gave an unnecessary defense of the CSA flag followed up in this post #236 with another completely unnecessary full-throated diatribe in defense of the flag. You then go on to continue ranting in defense of the flag in posts #242, and #243, complete with videos.

You posted about it 4 times before I even mentioned it. I mentioned it once, in post #246 responding to you and then only the 2nd time in post #251 (again responding to you) and I was completely on-topic addressing Asians in TV directly. You are the one who steered the discussion into a debate over it, then complain that we are "off topic" when your misrepresentations and faulty arguments are exposed. Puh-leese

This statement shows that you fully understand one of the concepts behind why the Confederate battle flag is so offensive... yet once again you refuse to appreciate concepts when applied to anything but your own pet-issues.

Why not start your own pet topic then on the Confederate flag, and leave this to Asians stereotypes in media?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Why not start your own pet topic then on the Confederate flag, and leave this to Asians stereotypes in media?

His well made point is that you are the one who turned this topic into a debate on the confederate flag, so your new found principled stand about how it is off topic just because that debate turned against you is frankly gross.

 

[Crackerbox]

If he decides to start a new topic, and include evidence of his assertions, then I will engage him there, not here. This topic is on Asian stereotypes in media. It's not on the Confederate flag. Note that I have included evidence to support my position multiple times, but am not longer interested in rehashing that here.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Isn't there a rather large difference betwee n-----------r and n-----a ?

No, they are the same, its just a difference in pronunciation. If you want a quick linguistic history:

Spoiler :

This particular subject was part of my senior Thesis publication so bear with me:

The color black (as opposed to brown) was assigned to the brown-skinned Africans because of the negative connotations of the color (soiled or stained with dirt, gloomy; pessimistic; dismal, deliberately; harmful; inexcusable, boding ill; sullen or hostile; threatening, without any moral quality or goodness; evil; wicked, indicating censure, disgrace, or liability to punishment, marked by disaster or misfortune, based on the grotesque, morbid, or unpleasant aspects of life, illegal or underground, etc.) in order to directly relegate them to white, defined as (morally pure; innocent, without malice; harmless, etc).

The color black in Spanish is "negro," hence the term "Negroes" widely being applied to black slaves being sold during the African slave trade years. So Black=Negro.

However, in the American South, they speak with an accent commonly referred to as a "drawl." The word "negro" when pronounced with a southern drawl first became "nay-gruh" (usually spelled negra). So, Black=Negro=negra.

And in the same way that "Indian" became "Injun" through repeated use and further mispronunciation, as people began dropping the "e" sound in In-dee-an to make it simply In-dyun, and In-jun... People began mispronouncing negra by dropping the r or pronouncing it lazily, or moving the "r" from the middle to the end of the word... People then began spelling it that way instead of just pronouncing it... which is how we get the "N-word".

Pronouncing it without the "r" at the end has been going on the whole time, but since this occurs frequently in Black urban slang, it became a convenient way to try to distinguish the use, but there really is no distinction in the word itself. The distinction is more accurately a simple in-group out-group thing... and arguably the more complex empowerment/reclaiming thing.

(I did not link a source for the "N-word" itself obviously b/c I don't want to get banned but try Wikipedia if you want more info)

So, to sum it up, the "N-word" is essentially a mispronunciation of the word "black" in Spanish.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Note that he included abundant evidence, by referencing all the posts where you tiraded on the confederate flag before anyone got around to challenging you on it. His assertion is irrefutable, based on evidence.

 

[Crackerbox]

Note that he included abundant evidence, by referencing all the posts where you tiraded on the confederate flag before anyone got around to challenging you on it. His assertion is irrefutable, based on evidence.

You already got three national poll answers on this, Tim. Only 4% of Americans see the Confederate flag as a purely racist symbol. I've already indulged you with numerous information from diverse sources. It is not solely associated with Jim Crow and Slavery.

But no matter what, the topic is on Asians and media, not the Confederate flag.

 

[Bootstoots]

Moderator Action: Anybody who wants to continue talking about the Confederate flag should make a thread on that subject rather than posting here.

 

[Traitorfish]

The F word for homosexuals is particularly bad since it has to do with the practice of burning them.

It doesn't, actually. That's a folk etymology that only appears long after the word has already been popularised. It more likely derives from the archaic use of the term as a pejorative for elderly women.

 

[Crackerbox]

It doesn't, actually. That's a folk etymology that only appears long after the word has already been popularised. It more likely derives from the archaic use of the term as a pejorative for elderly women.

Perhaps so. Certain words take on entirely new meanings later. What's important is that these words had a recent historical context of identifying people as inferior. I understand reclaiming a word, being proud of identifying with a group, but doing so allowed others to continue to use those archaic ugly terms.

The word for Japanese-Americans for example that is allegedly an abbreviation, is a very unwelcome word. Both Japanese-Americans and Japanese people have condemned it. And yet, it's compared to the innocent term "Brits" which is a legitimate concise word. So that pejorative for those of Japanese ancestry persists today even though repugnant to most Asian-Americans.

Who would ever think of using the old pejorative words for those who are Vietnamese or from China? They are very ugly words used by ill-educated people.

 

[Traitorfish]

I'm not sure that the kind of person who uses these slurs has ever needed even the inferred permission of the object of those slurs.

Blaming black people for the persistence of racist language and gay people for the persistence of homophobic language seems, at best, to be missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Crackerbox]

I'm not sure that the kind of person who uses these slurs has ever needed even the inferred permission of the object of those slurs.

Blaming black people for the persistence of racist language and gay people for the persistence of homophobic language seems, at best, to be missing the forest for the trees.

I'm takling about Hollywood using these words. I'm talking about the entertainment industry using them as well. When you do that, it means undoing the very difficult work of condemning those terms.

One need only watch the first season of the Walking Dead to watch Merle spew bigoted filth, I guess to sell the one dimensionality of his character as a trite inaccurate Southern redneck. Parts of that were directed to the Korean-American character, Glen Rhee, who was called other pejorative terms of other Asian immigrants. It's unnecessary. All it does it give tacit approval to use these antiquated terms yet again.

Of course some folks will see this as nothing more than the similar tactics of Colbert. The excuse will be it makes Merle look bigoted. Well, duh? Really, we needed him to say pejoratives to get that?

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't follow. As you say, Merle's use of racial slurs lowers his standing for the audience, while simultaneously raising the standard of its victims by casting them as sympathetic. It's narrative function follows from it being A Bad Thing. So how does that amount to an expression of "tacit approval" of those slurs? Do you also think the show's inclusion of zombies is a tactic approval of human cannibalism?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The excuse will be it makes Merle look bigoted. Well, duh? Really, we needed him to say pejoratives to get that?

As entertainment, it is far more effective than having the Merle character's dialog consist of repeating "I am a bigot" every time he has a line.

 

[Traitorfish]

Besides, the point isn't merely that he says the words, it's that he says the words. It demonstrates not only his bigotry, but also establishes that he is aggressive, confrontational and anti-social. It's not just the fact of his bigotry, but how that it plays out in the context of a group.