"Asian guys in my show? Not gonna happen!"

[Traitorfish]

It seems like a couple problems we have in terms of improving the representation of Asians in media are:

1. We don't really have a good sense of what exactly "they" are doing wrong, or differently towards Asians that we want changed.

2. We don't have any coherent sense of how whatever it is "they" are doing can be improved.

On the one hand we want Asians presented less stereotypically but we don't want them "whitewashed"... we want Asians to be presented with a perfect blend... acknowledgment of cultural heritage but not so much that it becomes stereotypical... and not so little that it becomes trivialized... Also Asians must not be excluded entirely because it is discrimination, but there must not be only one Asian character because that is tokenism... but not so many that it becomes Affirmative action... and all this must occur generically, not as a result of some program or initiative, because again... affirmative action.

So ultimately what it seems like we are trying to accomplish, is a system where everyone just feels naturally motivated to treat/handle Asian characters better than everyone else in the story.

As well as, not better, but for all the dripping irony, that's basically the gist of it. People can write well, or they can write what you tell them, but they can't do both. If we want depictions of Asian-Americans or anybody else which are both authentic and compelling, writers and producers have to want to portray Asian characters in an authentic and compelling way.

Glenn Rhee is an example of just such a character. He is a realistic depiction of a young Asian-American man and is a fully-fleshed, a fully-fleshed character and plays an important part in the narrative. My concern is only that he's not a sufficient model for future representation, because while it makes sense that he individually should not express much overt "Asian-ness", it would be unfortunate if that was the only way we could write authentic and compelling Asian-American characters. "Authenticity" means not only portraying Asian characters in a non-stereotypical way, but also representing the diversity of Asian-Americans. Characters like Glen Rhee are an easy place to start, but ultimately writers and producers are going to have to start presenting characters who more clearly exhibit Asian cultures and who participate in Asian-American communities, or we'll be hitting an effective glass ceiling in representation, in which conformity to WASPish norms- even more strictly than white characters, who are free to be overtly Irish or Jewish or Italian- becomes the condition for representation, and that's simply insufficient.

At a certain point, ethnic minorities have to be allowed to be minorities, or their ethnicity becomes a trivial point of biography, no more significant than to"was on the debate team" or "prefers Pepsi to Coke", and that's a very hollow imitation of the ethnic and cultural diversity which is the reality of many Americans. There's no quick fix that will achieve that, because as Timsup2nothin and I have pointed out, writers rely on a lot of shorthand to establish characters, and the legacy of racism is that this shorthand tends to break down into "stereotypes" and "white guys". Developing the vocabulary to the point where it allows for characters who are non-stereotypically but unapologetically non-white isn't something that can be done overnight. It's a matter of culture as much as of policy.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The entertainment industry is made up of predominantly white dudes. Whether or not their straight, well, that's not exactly easy to find out. But it's still an old boys' club. Just jump to page 4 and 5 here: http://www.bunchecenter.ucla.edu/wp...2/2015-Hollywood-Diversity-Report-2-25-15.pdf

Also this thread is a mess.

Films directed by minorities jumped from 12% in 2012 to 17% in 2013, with probably a comparable jump in 2014. The thing holding minorities back is the number who are qualified, not an effort to suppress. And while 17% is certainly low given that the population is 40% minorities you don't actually need a perfect representative sample to produce diversity of viewpoint.

Anecdotal evidence, but the only director I know beyond a passing acquaintance is a Hispanic female. Did she have an 'in' that might have compensated for her gender and ethnicity? Yes, since she's been in the entertainment industry ever since she was on Sesame Street as a three year old. She sees that as a competitive advantage that would work for anyone; as qualification, not compensation.

Will representation catch up to the population in a single 'generation' in the industry? Of course not, because minorities appearing as toddlers thirty years ago were certainly under represented and minorities with ten years of leading roles on their resume hardly exist because ten years ago they were practically non existent. But if you are looking for a 'old white men' dominated industry this ain't it.

By the way, and again pure anecdotal evidence, but gay vs straight in the industry seems to be at least as over represented as ethnic minorities are under represented. Hopefully that will come down over time, because most of my gay friends and acquaintances in the industry attribute it to "well, being gay gives you a lot of experience with acting" and I have hopes that that is no longer really true.

 

[Traitorfish]

Films directed by minorities jumped from 12% in 2012 to 17% in 2013, with probably a comparable jump in 2014. The thing holding minorities back is the number who are qualified, not an effort to suppress. And while 17% is certainly low given that the population is 40% minorities you don't actually need a perfect representative sample to produce diversity of viewpoint.

Anecdotal evidence, but the only director I know beyond a passing acquaintance is a Hispanic female. Did she have an 'in' that might have compensated for her gender and ethnicity? Yes, since she's been in the entertainment industry ever since she was on Sesame Street as a three year old. She sees that as a competitive advantage that would work for anyone; as qualification, not compensation.

Will representation catch up to the population in a single 'generation' in the industry? Of course not, because minorities appearing as toddlers thirty years ago were certainly under represented and minorities with ten years of leading roles on their resume hardly exist because ten years ago they were practically non existent. But if you are looking for a 'old white men' dominated industry this ain't it.

That's all true. But it's also besides the point. Nobody is alleging conspiracy, we're merely commenting on the state of direction things. We're dealing with a legacy of racism as much as any active racism, and while you're right that it won't be repaired overnight, it does require a concious effort to address. We can't simply hope that things will get better of their own accord; they never have and there's very little reason to expect they ever will.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

That's all true. But it's also besides the point. Nobody is alleging conspiracy, we're merely commenting on the state of direction things. We're dealing with a legacy of racism as much as any active racism, and while you're right that it won't be repaired overnight, it does require a concious effort to address. We can't simply hope that things will get better of their own accord; they never have and there's very little reason to expect they ever will.

Hmmm. I would say the entertainment industry has been pretty far ahead of this curve right from the gate myself, seemingly of its own accord. There are far more minority candidates for directing positions qualified by years of experience than there are fortune 500 CEO candidates. Apparently the 'grooming' positions have been open far longer in the entertainment industry than the span of time that it has been forced on industries in general. Point of fact one could say that the entertainment industry has not only complied voluntarily, but is itself responsible for much of the pressure exerted on other industries.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Point of fact one could say that the entertainment industry has not only complied voluntarily, but is itself responsible for much of the pressure exerted on other industries.

There may be a high degree of truth in this... At least it sounds right. Life imitates art, as it were...

 

[Traitorfish]

Hmmm. I would say the entertainment industry has been pretty far ahead of this curve right from the gate myself, seemingly of its own accord. There are far more minority candidates for directing positions qualified by years of experience than there are fortune 500 CEO candidates. Apparently the 'grooming' positions have been open far longer in the entertainment industry than the span of time that it has been forced on industries in general. Point of fact one could say that the entertainment industry has not only complied voluntarily, but is itself responsible for much of the pressure exerted on other industries.

I'm not sure "voluntarily" means, in this context. Without pressure from outside the industry, without pressure from the lower ranks of the industry, without any pressure whatsoever? And to what end- out of commercial interest, as a natural process, out of sheer benevolence? It's not clear what you're saying beyond the fact this wasn't brought about by government intervention.

At any rate, "not as retrograde as the Fortune 500" isn't a very strong claim. It only means they're lagging a generation behind public discourse rather than century.

 

[Gori the Grey]

How could Glen be written differently to show him as more Asian ?

They could show him struggling with how disappointed his parents had been with him for not exerting more thrift and industry and value for education in his previously having settled for a job as a pizza delivery guy.

I'm not just being arch. I have a serious point to make.

The image that Crackerbox has presented in this thread of the "successful immigrant" (thrifty, industrious, and valuing education (and often Asian)) is no less a stereotype than "yellow peril" or "Asian eunuch." When I asked him whether he would like Asians to be presented by the media as thrifty, industrious, valuing education, shame-ridden and guilt-filled (i.e. how they, in his account, are), he answered no. That is because he recognizes (on some level) that that too is a stereotype, and he (thinks he) wants no stereotypes.

But there are nothing but stereotypes. It's stereotypes all the way down. Il n'ya pas de hors-stereotype. As Tim and Sommer have pointed out, the supposed baseline for rich, three-dimensional characters, "whites," equally presented in stereotypical fashion.

Three-dimensional characters are not ones who manifest no stereotypes, but ones in which various of the stereotypes they manifest are in interesting conflict with one another. Such conflict, conflict between the various stereotypes we each inhabit, is what makes us feel to ourselves as though we are three-dimensional.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think you may be conflating "stereotype" and "archetype", there, but it's a good point. A "three-dimensional character" isn't one who would pass for a real person if he fell for the page, but one who reflects the fracturedness, contradiction and ambiguity we encounter when we attempt to apply our archetypes to the real world.

 

[NovaKart]

I don't think it would be a really interesting scene either.

 

[Gori the Grey]

I don't think it would be a really interesting scene either.

I think you're right, Nova, and I think that would be because the stereotype of Asian-American parents wanting their children to succeed through thrift, industry and value-for-education is (sorry if this offends you, Crackerbox) a particularly boring stereotype, however functional it might be for some in sizing up how our world works.

But if that's right, it means that we expect more of Hollywood than we expect of our RL selves. We find perfectly useful some stereotypes that we wouldn't find dramatically interesting if they were employed as part of the story arc in a TV show.

(Do ethnicities continue to matter in the Walking Dead world? As I've said, I don't watch the show,* so I don't know how beset the non-zombie characters are by zombies. But I could imagine circumstances so urgent that people don't have the leisure even to think about what race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. one another are. It doesn't mean that it would evaporate from their past experience, but just that there'd be no leisure for it to function in the immediate urgency of killing zombies.)


*this thread is the first thing that's made it remotely interesting to me, though I know it has an enthusiastic audience.

 

[Sommerswerd]

The more we talk about this, the more I am feeling like maybe what we are wanting here is just not reasonable. How can we expect an ethnic minority to be organically handled like the ethnic majority, without some kind of aggressive intervention and *gasp* satirical commentary to raise awareness?

What we seem to be looking for is change. But since change is generally uncomfortable, painful, expensive, and controversial, it has to be fought for. Change doesn't come cheaply or easily. It often takes drastic, dramatic things to accomplish change. And that means the change we are fighting for has to be worth going through all that...

 

[Sommerswerd]

Do ethnicities continue to matter in the Walking Dead world? As I've said, I don't watch the show,* so I don't know how beset the non-zombie characters are by zombies. But I could imagine circumstances so urgent that people don't have the leisure even to think about what race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. one another are. It doesn't mean that it would evaporate from their past experience, but just that there'd be no leisure for it to function in the immediate urgency of killing zombies.)

That is the same impression I always got about the Star Trek Universe... that it wasn't that human ethnicity went away... the issue of race/ethnicity was an ongoing issue for the Sisko character even in that futuristic time... it was just trivial when you're fighting the Kingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Borg, Dominion, etc, who want to kill you all and can care less about your so-called human differences.

 

[schlaufuchs]

Certainly if my fevered, typo-ridden speculation qualifies for special mention...

The thing to remember, I think, and which Crackerbox and other well-intentioned critics of mainstream media seem to forget, is that improving the representation of non-white characters is actually quite complicated. It seems like it's just a case of putting more non-white faces on screen, and there's certainly a start, it's certainly better than the alternative, but it's only a start. Writers, especially television writers, write characters rather than people; they're working with a certain vocabulary which is constrained by the historical biases in favour of straight white dudes. And it is possible, it's evidently possible, to write characters who are not straight white men whose non-SWM-ness is neither caricatured more minimised, but that means improving and expanding our collective vocabulary. It means figuring out how to communicate to an audience that a character is Asian or gay or whatever without either resorting to stereotype or without reducing that really pretty fundamental facet of their identity to something superficial or incidental. In The Walking Dead, the fact that Glenn's family is from Korea is barely more consequential than the fact that he's from Michigan, and while that may be fair in the case of a specific character, and it's certainly preferable to him being painted as a stereotype, it's hard not to feel like that's selling the Asian-American experience short.

If there's any long-term solution, it's behind the camera, it's in getting people who aren't straight white dudes into director's chairs and producer's officers and writers' rooms. People who aren't straight white dudes are much better positioned to expand the vocabulary beyond straight white dude-dom. How we do that is itself a complicated question, one way beyond my competence to answer, but for the purposes of this discussion it's safe to say that demanding a more diverse creative teams is going to be more fruitful in the long run than demanding un-diverse creative teams give us the appearance of diversity.

Absolutely. The Cosby Show is a good example of this.

 

[Traitorfish]

They could show him struggling with how disappointed his parents had been with him for not exerting more thrift and industry and value for education in his previously having settled for a job as a pizza delivery guy.

I don't think it would be a really interesting scene either.

It might be, but it could also build quite well off Glenn's existing character development. A bit part of his whole arc is learning to take things seriously, learning to take responsibility; at the show's opening, he has a relatively casual, almost frivolous take on the whole "end of the world" thing, because he's a young, unattached guy who didn't feel like he had much to loose, so the trauma of the whole thing hits him less immediately. It wouldn't be impossible for them to have added a couple of scenes working through that in more detail that referred to his parents, their immigrant work ethic and their unfulfilled hopes for him, especially as it becomes increasingly clear that the odds are he's never going to see them again and never going to get to prove that he can mature. Perhaps he could be relaying these feelings to Carl, as some sort of advice re: Carl's strained relationship with his father. That would allow them to bring his background as the child of immigrants, if not specifically as an Asian-American or Korean-American, into the story and into his development in a small, non-contrived way.

The more we talk about this, the more I am feeling like maybe what we are wanting here is just not reasonable. How can we expect an ethnic minority to be organically handled like the ethnic majority, without some kind of aggressive intervention and *gasp* satirical commentary to raise awareness?

What we seem to be looking for is change. But since change is generally uncomfortable, painful, expensive, and controversial, it has to be fought for. Change doesn't come cheaply or easily. It often takes drastic, dramatic things to accomplish change. And that means the change we are fighting for has to be worth going through all that...

There are going to be growing pains, I think you're right. That doesn't render any given role or joke or creative decision immune from criticism, and I wouldn't want to tell Asian-Americans to stay quiet because "hey, at least you're on television, what more do you want?". But there are times when we need to compare the present to where we've come from, as well as where we'd like to be headed- for the sake of one's own sanity, if nothing else- and if we do that, outrages like #CancelColbert can begin to seem somewhat frivolous.

 

[NovaKart]

Absolutely. The Cosby Show is a good example of this.

Yeah it was but there were some other shows like Good Times that were different.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

There seems to be an assumption that people of different ethnic background who do in real life live just like stereotypical white people don't really exist. I suspect there are real black families just as 'whitish' as the Cosby Show depicted*. Let's not refuse diversity within ethnicity in the name of ethnic diversity.


*Well, maybe not. I'm not sure there are real white families that are that shade of Wonder Bread, but my point stands.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't think anybody's saying that stereotypically "white-ish" people of colour don't exist, just that it's not a sufficient representation. If nothing else, depicting Asian-Americans who identify more clearly with their ethnic background- practicing traditional rituals, say, or using non-English languages with their family- doesn't exclude more assimilated Asian-Americans from that identification, but depictions of hyper-assimilated Asian-Americans may be seen to exclude Asians who retain a greater identification with their ethnic culture, at least if they appear in isolation.

I mean, the sort of upper-middle-class WASPish ideal represented by The Cosby Show isn't even a very good representation of white people, let alone everybody else. I can't imagine a lot of blue-collar Jews in Brooklyn or dirt-farmers in Tennessee look at that stereotype and think, "yep, that's me alright!" And we know that, and it isn't unusual for white characters to make scattered references to a distinct ethnic or regional heritage without risk of being stereotyped by it, because we accept that white people come in various iteration between "Country Club McMayonnaise" and "exclusively Yiddish-speaking grandmother from Minsk". That's something we seem to have more difficulty internalising with non-white people, particularly those of an immigrant background, who still tend to be written as stereotypically and two-dimensionally "foreign" or as what amounts to white people with a different complexion and foreign surname.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The thing to get from The Cosby Show is that a doctor married to a lawyer with three kids are going to be the "upper middle class ideal" and act like it no matter what ethnicity they are. Asian American doctors don't go home at the end of the day to a custom made house with one large room and have their bound footed wife adjust the shoji to the sleeping arrangement and roll out the tatami. Black doctors don't go home at the end of the day and sing spirituals...they live the same basic lifestyle as any other doctor in America.

Unless the character is of 'fresh immigrant' background, there is no effective way to portray them as anything other than "white people with a different complexion and a foreign surname" because that's what non-white people in America actually are. Unless they are recent enough immigrants to have a noticeable accent, they sound like everyone else. They might go home to more interesting cuisine, but that also disappears pretty quickly. They might attend a different 'church', but how often is any character depicted as having a specific religion? You said the Cosby's were 'WASP' ideal...can you point to a single episode of the show that would differentiate them from WAS Catholic?

You want depictions of realistic Asian Americans, and that is exactly what you get. Asian American cops are just plain old cops. Asian American detectives are just plain old detectives. Asian American doctors are just plain old doctors. Asian American delivery boys turned post apocolyptic zombie killers are just plain old delivery boys turned zombie killers. There is nothing to "write as Asian" about the characters involved.

 

[Traitorfish]

Alright, most of us understand that there is space between Country Club McMayonnaise and a grandmother from Minsk, but some dissent, insisting instead that Asian-Americans are either indistinguishable from white people except in incidental physiological and genealogical details, or they live in a castle and do kung fu before eating phu, because they're not only stereotypical, they're also surprisingly liberal about what national stereotypes they embody.

I'm not saying the whole thing has to slow down so they can be overtly Asian, only that it's possible to introduce elements of distinct ethnic culture without reduction to stereotype. Show an Asian household with Buddhist shrines in the background, in the same way that a Catholic household might have a picture of the Sacred Heart on the wall. Drop in passing references to an Asian-American character visiting his family for a non-Christian holiday. Just small things like that are start, things which even in a small way construct Asian-ness as an aspect of the character rather than as either an obstacle to characterisation or the entirety of characterisation.

(Also, what's a "WAS Catholic"? Aren't the overwhelming majority of Catholics in American ethnicky to some extent or other- Irish, Polish, Hispanic, etc.? Barring the descendants of 18th century Jacobites, who I can't imagine make a heavy dent in the census, I would have assumed that the extent to which an American Catholic fits WASPy stereotypes is the extent to which they are removed from an ethnic culture.)

 

[Sommerswerd]

live in a castle and do kung fu before eating phu

Its "Pho" ... and its delicious! One of the single greatest dishes that not God ever didn't give to man cause man gave it to himself

or herself

In (serious) response to your post I would ask how you view Bruce Lee vs. someone like Jackie Chan? To me Bruce Lee was stereotypical, but the sheer legitimate, proud, confident, genuine, quality of his awesomeness has to overcome the stereotypical-ness on some level. Jackie Chan is much more minstrel-ly... I would even say he is like the archetype of the Asian minstrel character because he is a buffoon AND a martial artist AND speaks with broken English... sometimes Jackie Chan offends me, and Im not even Asian...

But then I chalk it up to the "at least he's an Asian guy on TV" thing... I dunno