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Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by civ_king, Feb 18, 2010.

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  1. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Chieftain

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    Basically, you don't know what you are talking about here. Can you please just admit it? You've answered this question at least two different ways at different times. Are your opinions changing?

    There's nothing inherently wrong with having a Church, and calling it Catholic. Designing the Catholic Church was never the problem. However, it went astray in its theology over the years.

    "The Church" refers to Christianity, and it has prevailed.
     
  2. Holycannoli

    Holycannoli Chieftain

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    No, that's 100% true. The bible did not exist until the catholic church compiled it, laboriously reviewing book after book and leaving a lot of them out.

    No it's the theology of some who came along around the time of the Renaissance that went astray, one example being Sola Scriptura. They conveniently forgot the history of the bible and the church in their quest to claim power from the papacy for themselves.

    EDIT: Another glaring example is the removal of some books of the bible by protestant denominations. "The bible is the only authority on teaching the faith. But not these books, we don't agree with these books."
     
  3. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Chieftain

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    Then the Catholics also "Arbitrarily" left some books out of the Bible like you accuse the Protestants of doing.

    That's really irrelevant to my point though, I was really saying "You don't know what you are talking about" to the first comment, "Outside the Church there is no Salvation." I have heard two different answers on this, both from Civ_King. On the one hand, he says "Outside the Church there is no Salvation" and on the other hand, he says "You can be saved if you are outside the Church if... (I don't even remember the criteria)

    Can someone please explain this to me? If its not supposed to be something we know, can you just admit that? Is it possible for someone who has rejected Catholic teaching to be saved or not?
     
  4. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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  5. PeteAtoms

    PeteAtoms FormulaRandom

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    Immaculate conception, why is it necessary to believe Mary was free of sin?

    Do you believe the Ten Commandments only apply to the Jews at the time (as the language used seems to imply)?

    It seems that the third commandment forbids icons and idols used in worship. I think it implies that any image/icon is to be wrong. I believe I heard that the Jews even interpret this commandment to include things like Jesus on the cross. And if I'm not mistaken, Catholics are known for icons of saints and pendants/jewelry. Does this not pose an issue? If you pray to a Saint and happen to have a necklace or icon of that particular saint, isn't this a violation of the commandment?

    The Sabbath, how strict are you about this commandment? It seems like this would be the most commonly broken out of the ten, but no one seems to give a hoot, lol.

    If homosexuality is a sin, where does it rank in terms of the other sins? Is it worse than breaking the commandment about the Sabbath? Is it worse than any or all of the "7 deadly sins?"

    Do you think the idea of addressing God as "Father" is sexist? What do you think about the Jewish name for God, YHWH (Yahweh)? Is this the name that God refers to in the next commandment to not take his name in vain?

    What do you think about Hollywood's impact on the perception non-Catholics (or maybe including Catholics) have concerning exorcism? Is that how you think it actually works? Have you ever witnessed an exorcism or been in the presence of an individual you believed to be possessed?

    What do you think of all the religious relics found in Europe? The nails of the cross, some spear head thing, shroud of turin, etc?
     
  6. Maniacal

    Maniacal the green Napoleon

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    Something I thought of today, did Mary give her consent to be impregnated with jesus by god? Or was she raped (no consent was given)? (This isn't specifically a question for catholics just seemed like the closest appropriate thread, and yes its a serious question).
     
  7. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Chieftain

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    First of all, no sex was involved, so it wasn't rape. Second of all, it seems from the text she was willing. This would apply doubly so for a Catholic, who would claim that Mary was perfect.
     
  8. Takhisis

    Takhisis excuse me

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    up yours!
    I was just translating from the Latin. As for the rest, I've already stated my position.
     
  9. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Chieftain

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    Fair enough, though I was under the assumption that that was a dogma of some sort...

    Can someone explain to me to what extent, if any, the issue of "Outside the Church, there is no Salvation" is dogma that is accepted by all Catholics?
     
  10. NBAfan

    NBAfan boss

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    That is a good question.
    Yes she had voluntarily gave her consent. Look in Luke Chapter 1, verse 38 where she said, "I am the handmade of the Lord, let it be done to me according to His will."
    It also couldn't be rape because there was no sex.
     
  11. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp
    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0302fea3.asp

    Except the Church has been holding this since the beginning
    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0502sbs.asp
    See above
    I don't remember exactly
    The Ten Commandments applied to Jews at the time
    1. I am the Lord your God: You shall not have strange Gods before me.
    2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
    3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
    4. Honor your father and mother.
    5. You shall not kill.
    6. You shall not commit adultery.
    7. You shall not steal.
    8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
    10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.
    Calvin remodeled the Ten Commandments and made the whole icon and graven images part.

    The second commandment in Jewish faith encompasses both verses 3 and 4 against polytheism and the making of or worship of images of other deities or gods

    The Ten Commandments do not bind Christians, but Catholics are supposed to go to Mass every week, which I do.

    Sin really has two tiers, venial and mortal, homosexuality is a mortal sin, if you do not repent before you do you go to Hell.

    That is the way God set it up. I'm pretty sure take the Lord's name in vain applies to all languages.

    The way Hollywood portrays exorcism is really bad, that isn't how it is, I've never witnessed an exorcism and I've never been in the presence I believe is possessed.

    What of relics?
    She was willing to bear the child, and there was no sex involved.
    It is a dogma therefore Catholics must believe it.
     
  12. kochman

    kochman Chieftain

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    More changing of history by Civ King.

    It is based on differences in intrepretations of the original writing.

    The greek's have a word... it's called Iconoclasm. Iconoclasm is something that is directly related to the idea of icons and graven images.
    This difference in the icon/idol interpretation was around long before that "nasty heretic protestant" Calvin. These issues go back centuries before Calvin was even a glimmer in his father's eye.
     
  13. RoboPig

    RoboPig Chieftain

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    I think there might be some confusion here due to a failure to distinguish between those who reject the Church and those who are visibly outside it. If one rejects the Church, one is condemned by Extra ecclesiam, but that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone who is visibly outside the Church. Basically, for those who do not know of the Church or have a totally distorted understanding of her, but try to live a holy life and strive to serve God can be saved because they are invincibly ignorant of the Church's existence, and have thus not rejected her.

    There are of course those who are outside the Church and know her and reject her. They would not be considered invincibly ignorant.

    The other exception would be those who at the time of their death truly desire to enter the Church, but are unable to. Since they are penitent, we know that God will not judge them for this.

    I don't really see this as a contradiction. It's just accepting that there are those who are part of the Church without being visible members because they obey God and the Church as much as they can given the circumstances.

    EDIT: The website that civ king linked to is a pretty good one, I would read his extra ecclessiam articles.

    Homosexuality itself is not a sin. However, no homosexual act can take place within a valid marriage, and would thus be sinful, as would all extra-marital sexual activity, including lust. Homosexuals are called to live in chastity like everyone else, but since they cannot enter into marriage (well I suppose they could enter into a marriage with a spouse whom they had no attraction to, but they probably wouldn't and shouldn't enter into a loveless bond) for them this means abstaining from sexual activity. As to where homosexual acts fall on the hierarchy of sins, I have no idea what the Church teaches on this. They're probably equal with other extra-marital sexual acts.
     
  14. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Iconoclasm just mean destruction of icons from "icon" meaning image and "-clasm" meaning to break into pieces.

    Iconoclasm is common amongst major political and religious changes for example the knocking over of statues of Saddam after the US invasion of Iraq, King Hezekiah purged Solomon's Temple, Christians destroying pagan images after take over of Roman Empire.

    Icons are not worshiped in Catholicism also God commanded the Hebrews to make icons before for worship purposes (cherubim on the Ark).
     
  15. cardgame

    cardgame Sensual Kitten

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    Mary did give her consent, that much even I know...

    as for whether it was actual sex or not, who knows :mischief:

    Vague words have vague meanings.
     
  16. kochman

    kochman Chieftain

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    I know what it means. Thanks for the examples outside the realm of Christianity... but there is a history of iconoclasm and icon worship in Christianity's past.

    Icons are surely worshiped today in RC, whether you admit it or not... calling a cow a horse doesn't make it a horse.
     
  17. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Chieftain

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    @Kochman- I don't know what RCC rituals look like, but I do think there is a fine line between "Putting too much focus on something" and actually WORSHIPPING it so to speak. For instance, I think the Catholics put too much focus on Mary, but I don't necessarily think they worship her (Though I'm pretty sure at least some Catholics cross that line, or at least have campfire dances 3 feet away from it.)
     
  18. NBAfan

    NBAfan boss

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    No, icons aren't worshiped.
     
  19. Theige

    Theige American Baron

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  20. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    Icons are not worshiped, they are used in worship. Christianity has a long history of using icons to teach.

    Theige, please rephrase the question
     
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