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Mike, you might think I'm rejecting things because I'm close minded, but there is quite a history of Creationism Threads here.

Now most of these are 1000+ posts, so I don't expect you to read em all, but I'm using this to illustrate how thoroughly that site you named and sites like it have been shown to contain utter rubbish and have one clear goal: to muddy up the real scientific debate. If I recall correctly they also have guides of how to argue with evolutionists. Why would you have such a segment when you've got facts to go on?

Anyway:
Perfections KO's creationism threads.
One, two, three, four and five

Now the reason that Creationism is not science and will never be is that the aim of science is to have a testable hypothesis, and "god did it" is not a testable hypothesis. So, instead those sites attack Evolution with misinformation. Besides that, even if they have a point, and boy do they not, then it's still not scientific proof for creationism because of the reason already stated. Creationism or Intelligent Design will always be a non-scientific religious movement.

To prove this, Arakhor started a thread to let Creationist make their positive case for Creationism. Result: zip, zilch, nada. Sure, the first thing that Creationists did was attack Evolution. But they themselves had nothing to show for when it came to proving Creationism. Because, again, God did it has no proof. If it did you wouldn't have needed faith to believe in it.

Now, mind you. I'm fine with whatever the hell people want to believe. I'm not fine with people deliberately aiming to dumb down as many as they can. I'm not fine with people trying to get this stuff taught at schools. Or call it "teach the controversy". I'm bloody pissed off at the gall these people have. And unfortunately that means you too. And you seem such a nice guy :(

Anyway: Evidence for Creationism:
Part one, two and three

And Lone Wolf has been revealed to be Kent Hovind's account, so please don't turn your back towards him.
 
One thing I had to take a look at was the purpose of evolutionary teachings. Where does that take us, in terms of belief in God? . My conclusion was that the farther you go into accepting evolution, the farther it takes you from Himself. You start finding more ways to discredit faith, and the inspiration of God's Word. I knew that was wrong, God being God afterall, so I began to look in the other direction, and it was a real eye-opener.

See, my Theology box says, that god just sorta "got the ball rolling" as it were. Remember the Bible may be the word of God, but it is the word of God as told to the ancients who had a fairly poor understanding of the world, and then, better still it has gone through translation and transliteration, mostly by hand and with little accountability, for two thousand years. Which would an ancient Roman except more easily; That God stopped the sun, or that God placed the Earth in geosynchronous orbit?
Tell me. Do you walk out one hundred paces from the city to go to the bathroom?

Oh and if I here the words "believe" and "evolution" (or any other scientific law/theory) in the same sentence again I will have to break something.
 
And you are exactly correct. If not taken literally, the Bible opens up all sorts of possible interpetations. And that is where nearly all the false doctrines and abuses of the Scriptures come from. Everyone on this forum can easily point to instances where the Bible has been used to justify every kind of imanginable horror or off the wall behavior.

But taking the Bible literally is in no way a safeguard against that. Actually the groups claiming to take the Bible literally are among the most splintered groups, because they cannot agree on what the literal interpretation actually is.

For example I know (well, knew) a guy who took Luke 14:26 too literally and broke up almost all contact between himself and his family (who are quite fundamentalist themselves).

The question how to correctly interpret the Bible is a difficult one and trying to take everything literally is not the solution to it.


Very true, but don't forget that we are trying to compare ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic to modern English, French, German, etc. Something will get lost in the translation, but Christians consider that to be so small to be acceptable, and not a hinderance to our faith, or interpetation procedures. The message is not destroyed. And in God's eyes we cannot be wrong if we stick to what we have in front of us

But on some of these issues (like the genealogy thing) all major translations agree more or less on the translation, and with modern tools and some language skills Greek is accessible enough (Hebrew is another matter, though) so that one can see that the contradiction is also there in the Greek. Of course a translation is bound to be unable to capture the whole meaning, but that is why there are different translations and directly looking at the Greek is not too hard either.

Actually your reference to Paul answers this question.

In reading this and all of Paul's other letters, it is plain that there is something different here, and Paul himself knew it. And his way to explain it was that he was not getting a command from the Lord.
What does that mean, except that everything else he had written was from the Lord? If this were not the case, he would have not singled it out for comment.
And it also tells us that Paul was taking great care with his writings so that he did not make an error, and misrepresent God and His Words.

This is a reasonable application of logic. In 2nd timothy 3:16,17 this same Paul writes "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work"

It does mean, that this part is not directly inspired by God, because Paul explicitly states so. So there is the possibility that a verse is not directly inspired. Paul is careful enough to tell us here, but we do not know in what instances the writer might not have told us. No matter how much help from God there was, it was still written by humans and humans are fallible and make errors. For example if a New Testament writer for whatever reason incorrectly cites an Old Testament verse, this detracts in no way from the message, but it is still an error.

God gave us our brains, and expects us to use them. Christians need not be afraid of either science, or logic or questions.

But they are afraid of science, which is why we got into the mess that is Creationism, but more about that further down.

When I became a Christian, in 1971, I did in fact believe in evolution. I had a biology teacher in HS that I looked up to, and he made it known that religious beliefs were outdated, and wrong, as far at evolution were concerned, anyway. So I blindly held to that for several years. I had always believed in God, it just made sense to me that there is one. And so I fit Him and evolution together in my theology box, and went happily on my way.

When I became a Christian, I at once noticed the differences, but never really gave it much thought, thinking that to make the Bible and evolution work together, the 6 days of creation must have referred to ages of time instead of days. So I went with that.

Then one day I was reading Genesis ch1 and I noticed that on the 3rd day of creation God created earth, including all vegetation. Then on the 4th day He created lights to seperate day from night. Hmmmmmm......

Now I realize I am no scientist, but I do know that plants need sunlight to grow. And using ages of time instead of real days is not going to work. So I knew that something was amiss. That led me to start really looking at the question.

Now I won't go into everything else here, besides I have not read up on it in some time, and I will get something wrong. But if you look again at my last postings you will recall how I work through things. I take what I know to be true, and go from there. Well, I know the Bible to be God's Word, and I trusted Him and thousands of years of history over anything else. So I started there. (Some may not like or agree with this reasoning, but I am me, and you are you)

One thing I had to take a look at was the purpose of evolutionary teachings. Where does that take us, in terms of belief in God? . My conclusion was that the farther you go into accepting evolution, the farther it takes you from Himself. You start finding more ways to discredit faith, and the inspiration of God's Word. I knew that was wrong, God being God afterall, so I began to look in the other direction, and it was a real eye-opener.

May I suggest you take a look at Answersingenesis.org ? It spells out some of the problems with evolution, from a scientific , yet Christian view. At least it will show an objective reader who is looking to see another point of view, what is out there.
If one's mind is already made up, then they will, of course reject it. Honestly I would do the same about a evolution based web-page. But there is other ways of looking at this question, and they are not just blinded, ignorant, unthinking viewpoints.

AnswersInGenesis is exactly the pseudo-scientific crap I was referring to. I have been on that site years ago. You see, when I was younger I held Creationists beliefs. Evolution is random and does not explain anything, dating methods are not reliable, there are valid alternative scientific explanations, fossils are...uh...maybe misinterpreted? And so on. And on the surface it looks all pretty fine and scientific and reasonable. But then I started digging deeper. And I started to notice that below the surface not everything is as good as it should be. And the more I found out about it and the more I knew of the stuff these guys* are talking about (the science education certainly helped here) the more I noticed that it is all based on misrepresenting evidence, misrepresenting of actual science, hypotheses that are laughable at second look and a general unwillingness to apply scientific principles and critical thought. Basically these people make up wild explanations for anything, but have no interest in checking whether these explanations are actually consistent with each other or the evidence. And when you start to think a bit further, where these explanations would lead, you quickly see that they have to be nonsense. And even if a claim has been thoroughly debunked, people keep repeating it, most of the time without any modifications.

So I arrived at a point where there were two possibilities left: Either those who make up these explanations are so stupid that they do not notice the obvious errors, or they are intentionally deceiving. I do not have an answer for this, but I suspect it is a combination of both.

I do not know where exactly evolution takes us with our belief in God, but I do know that Creationism takes us in the direction of deceit. As I do not believe in a deceiving God I cannot take the latter approach.

*DISCLAIMER: When I rant about Creationists, I do not mean those who believe in a creator, but those who make up supposedly scientific justifications of it that are usually easily expose and make Christianity look ridiculous
 
May I suggest staying away from the lies and misinformation a at answeringgenesis.org or creation.com. Those sites have been debunked so often in this forum it's ridiculous. And no, they weren't debunked just by rejecting it. They were shown to be false, wrong, erroneous and deceiving.
Pardon me for saying so, but it seems the reason you rejected Evolution is not because of factual mistakes but because: You start finding more ways to discredit faith, and the inspiration of God's Word. I knew that was wrong. It sounds to me you rejected it because it gave you uneasy dilemmas with regard to your faith, not because you could fault it factually.

But you are at least honest about it. That's refreshing.

Mike, you might think I'm rejecting things because I'm close minded, but there is quite a history of Creationism Threads here.

Now most of these are 1000+ posts, so I don't expect you to read em all, but I'm using this to illustrate how thoroughly that site you named and sites like it have been shown to contain utter rubbish and have one clear goal: to muddy up the real scientific debate. If I recall correctly they also have guides of how to argue with evolutionists. Why would you have such a segment when you've got facts to go on?

Anyway:
Perfections KO's creationism threads.
One, two, three, four and five

Now the reason that Creationism is not science and will never be is that the aim of science is to have a testable hypothesis, and "god did it" is not a testable hypothesis. So, instead those sites attack Evolution with misinformation. Besides that, even if they have a point, and boy do they not, then it's still not scientific proof for creationism because of the reason already stated. Creationism or Intelligent Design will always be a non-scientific religious movement.

To prove this, Arakhor started a thread to let Creationist make their positive case for Creationism. Result: zip, zilch, nada. Sure, the first thing that Creationists did was attack Evolution. But they themselves had nothing to show for when it came to proving Creationism. Because, again, God did it has no proof. If it did you wouldn't have needed faith to believe in it.

Now, mind you. I'm fine with whatever the hell people want to believe. I'm not fine with people deliberately aiming to dumb down as many as they can. I'm not fine with people trying to get this stuff taught at schools. Or call it "teach the controversy". I'm bloody pissed off at the gall these people have. And unfortunately that means you too. And you seem such a nice guy :(

Anyway: Evidence for Creationism:
Part one, two and three

And Lone Wolf has been revealed to be Kent Hovind's account, so please don't turn your back towards him.

Thanks for the links. Even though it is not a question, I would like to point out that the Bible account was being taught first and at one point people were upset when Darwin edged its way into schools. Now you can argue that science has proven the Bible wrong enough to get it kicked out of the schools, but you cannot logically get upset when people try to get it back in. Either that or whenever you give your answer at least say we pushed the Bible out and we do not want it back. I keep getting from your response that this Bible/science view was just invented yesterday and is trying to displace modern science. Remember it is the protestants who forged past "church" doctrine and allowed scientific thought to proceed. Protestants can be scientist too.


See, my Theology box says, that god just sorta "got the ball rolling" as it were. Remember the Bible may be the word of God, but it is the word of God as told to the ancients who had a fairly poor understanding of the world, and then, better still it has gone through translation and transliteration, mostly by hand and with little accountability, for two thousand years. Which would an ancient Roman except more easily; That God stopped the sun, or that God placed the Earth in geosynchronous orbit?
Tell me. Do you walk out one hundred paces from the city to go to the bathroom?

Oh and if I here the words "believe" and "evolution" (or any other scientific law/theory) in the same sentence again I will have to break something.

Are you a Hebrew? I would say that the OT was written in Hebrew and was canonized that way. I think the Jews took their writings very seriously and not just haphazard. The NT was a little more scattered and if you want to carry around 20,000 manuscripts to verify you are getting everything correct every time you read a verse, then maybe you would appreciate the way the NT was cannonized. Now you can get upset when an CFC uses the Bible to challenge a scientific theory, but it is different than a person disrupting a class room in a local high school and using the Bible to discredit the teacher. If the US falls apart in the next 20 years, I doubt you can blame it on the Bible.
 
Thanks for the links. Even though it is not a question, I would like to point out that the Bible account was being taught first and at one point people were upset when Darwin edged its way into schools. Now you can argue that science has proven the Bible wrong enough to get it kicked out of the schools, but you cannot logically get upset when people try to get it back in.
This is not about cheering a team, this is about spreading lies and deception, either because of ignorance or other less redeeming intents.

Can you say Darwin edged his way into schools using lies and deception?

Either that or whenever you give your answer at least say we pushed the Bible out and we do not want it back. I keep getting from your response that this Bible/science view was just invented yesterday and is trying to displace modern science. Remember it is the protestants who forged past "church" doctrine and allowed scientific thought to proceed. Protestants can be scientist too.
Don't call it science. It does not meet it's criteria. This has the aim of pushing science out and ignorance in.

Your logic, you guys pushed us out, don't get upset when we try to push yours, is treating this as if it were a game. It's not a game.
 
Thanks for the links. Even though it is not a question, I would like to point out that the Bible account was being taught first and at one point people were upset when Darwin edged its way into schools. Now you can argue that science has proven the Bible wrong enough to get it kicked out of the schools, but you cannot logically get upset when people try to get it back in. Either that or whenever you give your answer at least say we pushed the Bible out and we do not want it back. I keep getting from your response that this Bible/science view was just invented yesterday and is trying to displace modern science. Remember it is the protestants who forged past "church" doctrine and allowed scientific thought to proceed. Protestants can be scientist too.
*snip*
R u bein cereal?
 
Are you a Hebrew? I would say that the OT was written in Hebrew and was canonized that way. I think the Jews took their writings very seriously and not just haphazard. The NT was a little more scattered and if you want to carry around 20,000 manuscripts to verify you are getting everything correct every time you read a verse, then maybe you would appreciate the way the NT was cannonized. Now you can get upset when an CFC uses the Bible to challenge a scientific theory, but it is different than a person disrupting a class room in a local high school and using the Bible to discredit the teacher. If the US falls apart in the next 20 years, I doubt you can blame it on the Bible.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that there were not copying errors.

And if the US fell apart in the next 20 years I would put my money on atheism not Christianity.
 
While this is ask a Protestant and now we have the Catholic answer, not to besmirch your anwer much, But would a three legged stool with one leg God and the other two Human, and since humans are prone to error, would that not cause a weak stool? The church is individuals built on the Rock of JESUS the CHRIST and held together by the authority of the Scripture and the indwelling of the HOLY GHOST. When one link is broken by human error the "building" does not fall apart. I would prefer that framework over a man-made footstool any day.

I feel obliged to answer even considering this is meant to be a forum regarding protestant questions.

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Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Magisterium are all considered to be infallible divine sources of authority. This due that without all of them any one is insufficient as a source of authority alone.

Thus you see the 40-000 odd protestant sects each with its own 'version' of the truth. Logic alone deduces that if there is one God, there can be only one truth, for God is the source of all truth. Therefore it is impossible to say that ALL the protestant sects are true, because then you are calling God a deciever.

So you see sacred scripture alone (sola scriptura) is insufficient as one can interpret the scripture in any which way, even though it itself is an infallible source of teaching and authority humans alone are still fallible, thus without something else error runs wild and you get the multiplicity of various groups i noted earlier.

Considering that, Sacred Scripture requires the light of Sacred tradition some of who's biblical references I have already given to provide the context for correct interpretation. We are confident of the correctness of sacred tradition, the doctrines of the Church (compared to mere disciplines such as priestly celibacy which are not part of the deposit of faith) and that God through his promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church, and the he will be with us always, and that he will not leave us orphans ensures through the Holy Spirit that it is preserved from doctrinal error.

However these two things alone are also insufficient as what is there to prevent men from interpreting tradition and scripture into error, we require another pillar to ensure the stability of the whole. This is the Sacred Magisterium who through the promises of Christ is determined in its ordinary and universal capacity to be guided infallibly by the Holy Spirit to be preserved from error on matters of doctrine and morals. For otherwise the Church could misinterpret sacred tradition and sacred scripture and veer into error, when God has promised that will not happen.

Thus in addition to Sacred Scripture we have Sacred Tradition, which is context for interpretation and Sacred Magisterium the infallible interpretor, for what use is sacred scripture or tradition without one preserved from error to interpret it.
 
I've always found "Faith without works is dead" to be easy. I was raised with the concept of 'sufficient faith'. Not just a little, but a lot. Without sufficient faith, you will not be accepted into Heaven.

You are slightly on the path towards the correct view, but you have not yet made the leap.

Sufficient faith is necessary and works is a product of this for without sufficient faith one will not manifest with the good works and fidelity to all of christs positive (do something) commandments, nor will one open oneself to God's grace. (not all who say, Lord! Lord! will enter the kingdom of heaven). Faith alone is not sufficient as without being consolidated in action and sacrifice it is not true faith, and nor does it express true love of God.

To this point you are in basic agreement with the Catholic Church although your interpretation is erroneous still.

What you still do not get is that no man can justify himself into heaven, faith alone, nor works in themselves get one to heaven. What does get one to heaven is a free acceptance through true faith, manifested in works and fidelity to ALL Christ commanded of God's grace. God's grace alone justifies salvation.

God does not throw anyone into hell, the soul throws ITSELF into hell because it cannot bear to be in the presence of the ever-loving and merciful God when it has freely chosen to rejects His grace. Hell is God's mercy, not his punishment, for indeed it would be more painful for the soul that rejects the love of God to remain in his presence than to go to hell, and as God gives us free will he accepts the choice of the soul for only with choice can a true relationship in love be made.
 
How do you guys interpret the whole "resist not evil" spiel we see in Matthew 5? How does one apply that in modern thought or policy? :)
 
How do you guys interpret the whole "resist not evil" spiel we see in Matthew 5? How does one apply that in modern thought or policy? :)

I think the School of Salamanca is pretty cool
 
:lol:

Protestants only have their own human opinions to base their claims on, so I think you will find a whole plethora of answers depending on each individual protestant you should ask the question too.
 
How do you guys interpret the whole "resist not evil" spiel we see in Matthew 5? How does one apply that in modern thought or policy? :)

People are still free to give the shirt off their back. Now if it said not to debate, I guess you guys would just have to troll each other.:mischief:
 
I think the School of Salamanca is pretty cool

I can't take you seriously with that avatar....

Thus you see the 40-000 odd protestant sects each with its own 'version' of the truth. Logic alone deduces that if there is one God, there can be only one truth, for God is the source of all truth. Therefore it is impossible to say that ALL the protestant sects are true, because then you are calling God a deciever.

Not all of them are true. Most likely, NONE of them are correct about everything. Heck, in Baptist Churches, you can believe whatever you like, provided you can defend it with Scripture. Is everyone in my Church right? Is ANYONE in my Church totally right? I doubt it.

That said, there are varying degrees of falsehood. Most of Evangelicism (I consider wacky Fundies like the Appalachian Baptists and the WBC and such to be beyond the scope of Evangelicism) has the basic idea right. Other Christian denominations and sects are more off, but that doesn't mean they are apostate, at least not inherently.

That said, I think we are SUPPOSED to get some things wrong. While Salvation is clearly taught to be by Faith alone, some issues are open to interpretation. We will be learning the correct truths both through study in this World, and through all eternity...
 
But then you are rejecting Christs promist to be with us always until the end of days, and that he will not leave us orphans.

Furthermore your rejecting the promise of the holy spirit who Christ sent to reveal all truth.

And even disregarding that all that you are saying is your own human opinion amongst billions, I can just go to some other protestant and get another completely different opinion, and as you have admitted you cant ALL be right.

Thus reason alone (in doctrine and in this fact) dictates that protestantism itself is wrong, erroneous and in no way divinely inspired, and that the Church Christ founded (logically not protestant anyway since it emerged 1500 years after Christ) is elsewhere. By their fruits you shall know them, and protestantism has resulted in a shattering into many thousands of sects, in stark contradiction to Christ's wish that they should be ONE. Fundamentally the only Church who's claims backed by scripture, history and logic can claim a reasonable place as the Church founded by Christ and to the fullness of truth is the Catholic Church. Even the name is mentioned less than a century after christs death.

-

"Wheresoever, the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ is, there is the Catholic Church"

~St Ignatius of Antioch c. 100A.D Epistle to the Smyrnaeans

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"If ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord's House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens "houses of the Lord"), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God"

St Cyril of Jerusalem, 315 - 386A.D (Catechetical Lectures, XVIII, 26).
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"And so, lastly, does the very name of "Catholic", which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house."

St Augustine of Hippo (354–430): Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental,
 
Now considering the length of your post I apologise if I miss anything but I shall to the best of my ability respond.

Sure.




15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

It states that all scripture is inspired and comes from divine revelation which is perfectly true, and the Catholic Church oncurs with that, congratulations. Likewise it also says that all scripture is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. However nowhere in this passage does it state that scripture is the sole infallible authority. On the contrary this passage is merely an assertion that all scripture is inspired text from God and useful for catechesis which is perfecty true by any measure of the word. Now you have states that tradition is not 'God-breathed', and you are correct insofar as the bible does not use that phrasing in reference to sacred tradition. But scripture does indeed support sacred tradition.

There are a couple of issues here. First of all, Catholicism is CONTRADICTORY to Scripture:

http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-5.htm

Protestants claim there is one Mediator, Jesus Christ, as this verse says. Catholics teach that Mary and the Saints are also mediators. Catholicism is incorrect.


1 Corinthians 11:2-16
2 Thessalonians 2:15
John 21:25

The first two sections of Scripture you cite do provide support for Tradition. But not in the same sense that 2 Timothy 3 does for Scripture. Its not nearly as strongly worded. In 2 Timothy, it says Scripture is GOD BREATHED. Nowhere is this said about Tradition.

Now, tradition can still be important, and provide insight, without being infallible. I can buy that. But it is not infallible.

I guess it would be like if I said: "Listen to every word that I command you, trust me with all of your heart and do all that I command, and obey the teachings of my family." Now, if you considered me a valid source (Say you were already my follower.) Now, would you interpret this to mean that my family saying something is as valid as me saying it? Nope, my family could contradict me or whatever. I say about myself strong words that prove that everything I say is true, but I don't say this of my family. I simply say obey them, in weak language. It can be assumed that certain commands of my family may be wrong.

I am ignoring, of course, that I am not infallible either, I am just a man obviously, and I err quite often. But for the sake of analogy, assume this is not the case.

It says to "Obey Tradition" simply because Paul's traditions were true! Paul could not have known future traditions would be true.

As for your last verse, that simply says that Jesus did other things that weren't written. And obviously this isn't the case. I'm not saying the Bible is 100% conclusive on every moral and doctrinal issue. That's where free will, Christian Liberty, the conscience, and personal belief all come into play.

The first two highlight the oral transmission of knowledge ie sacred tradition while the third acknowledges that the bible does not contain everything Christ said. Scripture also acknowledges that christ spoke with the apostles at times not recorded in scripture, and reason likewise would determine this. Now in consideration of these verses and the promise of christ to send the Holy Spirit to inspire and teach John 16:13 we see that sacred tradition is indeed a viable source of authority. Consider this with the promise of Christ to 'be with us always until the end of days' and with the famous promise to Peter. "You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church and not even the gates of hell will prevail against it" we see that Christ promises to preserve the Church from error in matters of doctrine and the impossibility according to this promise of the Church falling into error.

Christ promises the Church in general (Christians in general, including Catholics but not ONLY Catholics) will prevail. Obviously he means Christians, since there wasn't a Catholic Church at the time for Hell to prevail against.

And BTW, how do you know it was the Catholic Church it refers to? How do you know it wasn't the Orthodox Church?

Thus we see a combination of biblical exhortations to accept oral teachings of the day (incidentally prior to the compilation of the new testament) the promise of the holy spirit to continue in revelation what christ taught, the impossibility of the bible containing everything Christ spoke and thus see that alone the bible is not sufficient a source for authority by itself. (not to mention you failed to break the paradox i mentioned previously)

Thus we see that Sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are both neccessary combined with the Sacred Magisterium (not prevail against it, and the exhortation to obey the legitimate authority of the apostles and bishops [paul]) which like three legs of a stool keep the church upright in correct doctrine in fidelity to ALL Christ commanded. Sola Scriptura is more like hopping on a pogo stick.

Then why has the Papacy corrupted the original doctrines?

I do think Tradition can be a valuable sense of insight into the Early Church, but it is not infallible, and the farther forward you go, the more corruption you see. In the 1500s the Catholics were burning heretics at the stake (The Protestants were doing so as well, I'm not trying to troll Catholics here) but the Catholics are the Church of God! At least, according to you. AFAIK, Catholicism teaches that at least some (I never understood exactly how "Outside the Church, there is no Salvation," means, let alone that it is the most moronic way to word a tradition that actually teaches that non-Catholics CAN be saved) non Catholics are Christians. Therefore, God's chosen Church killed some of God's Children. If this is the case, have not the gates of Hell prevailed?



If I understand the full implications of Sola Scriptura correctly, it's not a belief held universally by Protestants.

*And now for the intermission*

Well, Sola Scriptura simply means that Scripture, and no other source, in inspired. I don't think it necessarily think all proponents of Sola Scriptura teach inerrancy. With that said, pretty much all Protestants accept Sola Scriptura.



You failed in your previous post to address actual catholic doctrine instead hypothesing on a non-existent work-based salvation theology. The Catholic Church does not teach that works justify salvation.

I know some Catholics, particularly some less serious ones, teach works Salvation, but I don't know what the official doctrines are.

What the Catholic Church teaches is that faith is neccesary for salvation,

Doesn't Catholicism teach that a lack of faith, with less than perfect knowledge, does not necessarily damn a person?

that your faith in Christ is a neccesary precondition to salvation, however true faith demands sacrifice for otherwise it is empty.

I agree, but I think you have the order backwards. We don't get saved because we do good works, we do good works because we are saved.

That said, good works are the EVIDENCE we are saved. Its like if I claim I was hit by a car. Is it POSSIBLE my claim is accurate, even if I don't look like it? Maybe, it could have happened long ago, but there would be no evidence, so you'd have reason to be skeptical.

In the same way, genuine good works show evidence of a genuine encounter with the Holy Spirit. Not showing works does not mean you aren't saved, but that Evidence does not exist, and therefore we don't really know if the person is truly saved or not (Occasionally its painfully obvious, but be very careful when going down that road.)

Acts 16:31 says believe and you shall be saved, not believe and do good works and you shall be saved.

Just like a marriage requires sacrifice of its participants in mutual self giving to eachover thus the faithful christian must make sacrifice his sin, and act in fidelity to all the commandments of christ. Thus faith is manifested in works and in fidelity to the commands of christ otherwise your faith is meaningless as you fail to acknowledge the demands of holiness and God.

I agree, Faith without works is dead, but works are not what save you. A Faith + Works gospel is one that teaches that man can save himself, or at least assist in his Salvation, by his own efforts. But the Bible teaches none are righteous.





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Likewise you also mentioned a lower place in heaven for those who sin on earth,

I think this is more based on the place of the heart than an actual sin. I think a guy in India who knows nothing about the Bible other than the tiny bit he was taught, yet gives his life to what he knows, will receive great reward in Heaven. I don't think simply avoiding Sin will grant us great reward.

this seems to bring up the principle of mortal and venial sin 1 John 5:16-17 in which some sin is so grievous that it cuts off salvation, kills the soul and unless its is genuinely repented is 'deadly' and leads to damnation. In regards to sola fide this is problematic as if their is sin that is mortal, clearly supported in scripture than one can lose their salvation. Likewise having commited such a sin does not presuppose loss of belief and under Sola Fide this would mean that no sin is mortal. This is clearly contradicted in scripture which states that sin can lead to death, which is the true death of damnation.

Don't Catholics teach a bunch of mortal sins, like Masturbation, sex outside marriage, exc? Do you believe we are called not to pray for people who commit such sins?

I believe in mortal sin, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but I do not believe it is possible for a Christian to do this. In fact, I think very few people actually get the opportunity to do this.
 
Lots of stuff going on here, and i am trying to catch up a bit.

Ziggy, this applies mostly to your reply to me, but it fits for all the others:

Basically I screwed it up. Not in just I had no way of knowing that the evolution/creation discussion had been done, over, and over and over.....
But, to be honest I had not really looked at the site I linked, just for a little bit. I was running around here, playing taxi driver to 3 boys for different jobs, and getting over to see my mom. So I admit I got a bit lazy on checking what I was writing.

My apologies, and now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.
 
Now, mind you. I'm fine with whatever the hell people want to believe. I'm not fine with people deliberately aiming to dumb down as many as they can. I'm not fine with people trying to get this stuff taught at schools. Or call it "teach the controversy". I'm bloody pissed off at the gall these people have. And unfortunately that means you too. And you seem such a nice guy

Ziggy: I gotta laugh at this one, if you only knew the week I've just had, outside of this forum.................. It fits right in. Not my best week ever.

Sorry if I gave anyone the impression I am trying to "dumb down" anything. I thought I've made it clear that I am willing to listen to anyone who wishes to discuss subjects in an reasonable, mature manner. I do respect everyones' views, no matter if I agree with them or not. OK- maybe not everyone....
I have nothing to say to little children who cannot express themselves without attempting to belittle, mock, or insult those with whom they do not agree.
 
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