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Latin was the language of the Church and of God, as far as the mediaeval church was concerned. Translating anything holy into mundane languages would thus be an affront to God.

Come on, Kochman, this really doesn't take a massive stretch of the imagination.
 
I'm sorry, but no, they're both talking about the ancestry of Joseph the carpenter. There's one mention of Mary and that's Matthew's line that Jacob begat Joseph, the husband of Mary.

No, they were talking about the ancestry of Jesus.
Spoiler :
1The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli


I'm sorry, but where does it say in the Bible that Luke is talking about the lineage of Mary? It is after all divinely-inspired, infallible and self-contained.

The verse says "as was supposed". People interpret it as Jesus the son of Mary, the son of Heli (Mary's Dad) the son.....

I'm still waiting on any evidence at all that says that the two differing accounts of Jesus' genealogy apply to Joseph and Mary, rather than both to Joseph, as the Bible pretty clearly spells out.

Once again, Joseph had nothing to to do with anything other than he was the husband of Mary. Mathew does use the father's lineage, but only as Jesus being the "adopted" son, his human side. Jesus had the DNA as it were of God. Luke shows his mother's lineage (his fleshly side) or the seed of the woman. The lineages are of Jesus, NOT Joseph.

Well, since no one seems inclined to explain the contradictory genealogy question, are we expected to believe that Noah's family built the Pyramids? They are believed to have been built around 2400 BC or so, which is when I believe that the Great Flood is alleged to have taken place.

It was answered, maybe not exactly what you were looking for, but clearly one would seem to have been able to read the passages in context. There is a reason that Joseph was not mentioned that much. The New Testament was not about him, but Jesus. I apologize for taking so long to answer the question. Unless you want to believe aliens built them the logical conclusion is that his decendents did. If you are asking why it does not state it in the Bible, the logical conclusion is that the OT is about God and the Jews and not the Egyptians or those living in that area at that time. The Bible is not a history book nor is it a science book. It is God revealing Himself and how "some" of His chosen people reacted to it. It may have historical accounts and even some science thrown in though.;) They seemed to have lasted longer than the tower of Babel.:mischief:



Mundane to God. Sorry, but humans were equalized at the Cross. Grace was shed upon all and no one had any special claims from then on. To form a religion and "keep" God bottled up is one of the first steps the "church" did get wrong. Canonizing the Bible is ok, but to then pass it out like communion was wrong. There were 20,000 known manuscripts where local churches did copy and distribute the Word very availably. Not letting it go on was a disfavor to God, not an act of seperating Him from the mundane. The OT was the Holy being seperated from the unholy. Jesus changed that and brought God to every one equally. No religion has the right to stand in the way and proclaim they "know" the truth while every one else has to "earn" it.
 
@C_H, I don't think we're disagreeing about the historical accuracy/inaccuracy aspect...but what you see as infallible, I see as different accounts by people of the same thing. Meaning either one is wrong or one missed something. Again, that is perfectly fine and doesn't mean that any account is lying about what thought they saw, but for something to be infallible, you expect that to be complete and accurate. The same problem arises with what happens at the tomb. Different accounts say different things.

But that is what we are about, since infallibility and inerrant are talking about the fact that the Bible is accurate in what it says. So we are taking about the sam thing, even if you are using different words. http://www.tektonics.org/qt/rezrvw.html To answer the question about the Resurrection and what happened afterwards.
 
Radical leftism was persecuted in Tsarist Russia. Many radical leftists were imprisoned, some were forced to leave the country. But in the end, Radical leftist ideologies triumphed. Therefore, Radical leftism is divinely inspired.
 
Radical leftism was persecuted in Tsarist Russia. Many radical leftists were imprisoned, some were forced to leave the country. But in the end, Radical leftist ideologies triumphed. Therefore, Radical leftism is divinely inspired.
This is a poor analogy.

Where is that radical leftist empire now? Gone with the wind.
 
Latin was the language of the Church and of God, as far as the mediaeval church was concerned. Translating anything holy into mundane languages would thus be an affront to God.

Come on, Kochman, this really doesn't take a massive stretch of the imagination.
Exactly why the world needed the Reformation!
 
Where is that radical leftist empire now? Gone with the wind.
It's true. Therefore, God approved of radical leftism in 19-early 20 centuries, but then, He, for His own mysterious reason, changed His mind and started to protect liberal democracy. Liberals were persecuted in the Soviet Union, many were sent to prisons, camps and asylums. Yet, in the end it prevailed. Therefore, radical leftism was firstly approved by God, and then discarded by Him, Truly, His ways are not our ways.
 
It's true. Therefore, God approved of radical leftism in 19-early 20 centuries, but then, He, for His own mysterious reason, changed His mind and started to protect liberal democracy. Liberals were persecuted in the Soviet Union, many were sent to prisons, camps and asylums. Yet, in the end it prevailed. Therefore, radical leftism was firstly approved by God, and then discarded by Him, Truly, His ways are not our ways.
Ah, the use of circular logic... a true sign of having nothing intelligent to say.
 
I'm struggling to make sense of this paragraph.

I don't mean omissions or things that make no sense but would if put in a better context. I'm talking about literal contradiction, i.e. one part of the bible state fact A and the other states B and those are in no way reconcilable. It must follow that either A or B, i.e. one part of the bible, must be wrong, which means the bible isn't right on everything.


My problem is that it is often cherry-picked what is literal and what is figurative. The same paragraphs that are defended with "don't take it literal" on one occasion are used as a moral imperative on another.


Exactly, and this is where the fallacy kicks in. Of course there are accounts of the resurrection, but only by those who believed in it in the first place, while the others didn't care to write down "during Passover 33 AD nobody was resurrected."

To bring it into perspective: OBL may or may not be dead. Maybe 10 people at the most know what really happened. Only two were alowed to write about it 30 years later. Thanks to the newly discovered hard drives a thousand years from now historians sift through millions of "contemporary" post and see that there are a lot of opinions. The government did release 100 years after the fact the "biblical" account that was more the truth than even thousands of reports that may have been etched together over the first 100 years.

We do not have the benefit of the one's in the know keeping the truths unrevealed and intack like the government of today. Most people may look at them skeptically any way to bias. We do have accounts of the witnesses, even if scholars today think otherwise. We do have 20,000 manuscripts that were passed around and were not like todays internet opinions, but writings of those who did believe the truth. You had skeptics also that argued against doctrine, but never wrote the disciples were lying about the resurrection. For 100 years at least there were too many people who saw Him afterwards and/or were told that to deny the fact. Later we had people who being removed from eyewitness who started to proclaim it was just figurative.

No one wrote down (at the time it did happen) those claims. They would have been refuted. Now getting the stories to align properly may have been the editors decission to not do so, or they were not that "off" to be of concern. I lean toward the latter. 2000 years later, to some people they do matter, but since we do not have "inside" information like they did 2000 years ago, we just have to agree that they do not make sense to us, but we cannot say that the Bible is not infallible because of them. IMO God would not leave us with an infallible logos. From a historical opinion, I just have to admit, I do not know what happened when the Bible was canonized.

To differentiate between literal and figurative, you have to take everything into the context of when it was said. A parable is a parable, not necessarily an actual event. If a person is anti-God and tries to read the Bible, I am sure that a lot of it will not make sense. If someone is looking for God, then more of the Bible will make sense. If a person allows God to open their eye and try not to prejudge anything, then even more will start to make sense. There are very few if any 1st graders who can grasp calculus but as they add to their knowledge of the basics, calculus will eventually make sense to them. If any one is taught a lie, they may question it at first, but the more they embellish it, the more they start to accept it and it becomes the "gospel truth". It is up to each individual to figure out what is Calculus and what is a lie.


What circular logic :confused:

As a Protestant, the logic that keeps people bound to tradition instead of seeing the light in a new perspective every so often?
 
This lead to that therefore this must be the case as a result of that or the other thing... it's really pointless.
My point was simple:

You made a claim that stated that Christianity's triumph is an evidence of its divine truth, because in the beginning it was massively persecuted by the government.

I pointed out that there were many other movements that triumphed despite massive governmental persecution. Therefore, a triumph over a persecuting government can't be a proof of Divine favour.

Nothing circular in that.
 
My point was simple:

You made a claim that stated that Christianity's triumph is an evidence of its divine truth, because in the beginning it was massively persecuted by the government.

I pointed out that there were many other movements that triumphed despite massive governmental persecution. Therefore, a triumph over a persecuting government can't be a proof of Divine favour.

Nothing circular in that.
I get your point, but it doesn't consider EVERYTHING else I have said... you are taking one statement out of the context of a massive foundation of support that we have talked about in this thread. My only point about persecution was to refute the idea that Christianity's growth was due to "popularity".

Much as leftism was suppressed, it grew because people believed in it, despite the possible outcome. Not because it was "popular".
 
Do Protestant churches typically sanction divorce and re-marriage?

Unfortunatley. Marying and being given in marriage... hhmmm. I do not think conservatives sanction it, but they cannot avoid it either. At least in the west, it is a norm, that will not go away over night.:(
 
If the Bible is not a historical or scientific treatise (the most sensible conclusion), why do so many Protestants take the Bible as literal, historical and scientific fact?
 
If the Bible is not a historical or scientific treatise (the most sensible conclusion), why do so many Protestants take the Bible as literal, historical and scientific fact?
You are a protestant, right? I don't understand why you are asking this question.

I guess you would have to find someone who thought of it that way to get the answer (and they do exist).
 
If the Bible is not a historical or scientific treatise (the most sensible conclusion), why do so many Protestants take the Bible as literal, historical and scientific fact?

Because it makes sense to do so. If it does not make sense to you, then you have the right to question it. If it does make sense to you, then you accept it as truth, not blindly, but so far what scientist have put forth IMO does not contradict the Bible, because to me, the scientist do not make sense. Remember you can believe a lie or a truth as if it were a fact if you so choose to do so. Several hundred years ago more people would be inclined to believe the Bible. Now they believe science. Neither view can prove or disprove the facts, but whoever is the most convincing. The truth never changed, just our perceptions. If I could go back and video Noah and the flood, I would probably convince you. If you can go back and erase the stories that have been passed through several different cultures about a flood that made a "historic" impression, then you may convince me.
 
I'm struggling to make sense of this paragraph.

I don't mean omissions or things that make no sense but would if put in a better context. I'm talking about literal contradiction, i.e. one part of the bible state fact A and the other states B and those are in no way reconcilable. It must follow that either A or B, i.e. one part of the bible, must be wrong, which means the bible isn't right on everything.
Of course it's not. It's a historical source. Thoukydides made internally inconsistent comments, too. We don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Leoreth said:
Exactly, and this is where the fallacy kicks in. Of course there are accounts of the resurrection, but only by those who believed in it in the first place, while the others didn't care to write down "during Passover 33 AD nobody was resurrected."
I, um, don't see the logical fallacy?
 
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