Ask an Evangelical IV

GhostWriter16 said:
I can't really tell you which view is accurate, and it doesn't matter anyways.
Of course it matters! Either your god interacts with the Universe or he (it's a He, right?) doesn't. If he does, then there must be a manner in which that happens.

If he's doing something like causing death and destruction through a storm, then that means that variations in pressure and humidity that caused the storm to form must have been influenced by him. Difference in pressure and humidity arise through the interaction of molecules. So he must be affecting molecules. Is this what evangelicals believe?

Also, I'd like some other evangelicals to respond to the specifics of my question:
Me! said:
[God has a "hand" in everything that is going on in the universe.]
Is this a common view among Evangelicals?

And does it mean - literally - everything?
The Mars rover Curiosity's laser beam?
The third virtual particle to wink into existence next to the black hole of the galaxy 8 in from the edge of the visible universe?
Stalin's forced labor camp at the old Archangelsk monastery?

How does god interact with the Universe?

Why is such a negligible fraction of the Universe suitable for human occupation?
 
I suposse you have read the bible, so, do you approve that God had the reason of saying their people to conquer the so called Holy Land? And for you is good that God helped their believers by telling them how to destroy the Jericho Walls? I mean, isn't God someone who only wants love and peace amongst humans?
 
The idea behind blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is that if you receive such a manifest revelation of God and yet still reject it, there is s no way you would accept it. Basically, you've reached a point that no matter what God did to get you to believe (Short of outright force) you would reject it. So its unforgivable because it is fundamentally impossible to repent of it, if you've reached a point where you would commit that sin, you wouldn't be asking for forgiveness..

But that's nothing to do with what I quoted.

Here it is again:

blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying that Jesus did His miracles by the power of the devil.

So, Jesus did a miracle and I say he did but derived his power from the devil*....

Then I've committed the required blasphemy and cannot be forgiven.

This is plain bonkers thinking.

*I suppose this is accusing Jesus of being the Anti-Christ, but why would even this be unforgivable. I could simply be bonkers myself, or just plain mistaken. What? I don't get it.
 
That is correct to my knowledge, although this isn't clearly explained anywhere to my knowledge.

The idea behind blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is that if you receive such a manifest revelation of God and yet still reject it, there is no way you would accept it. Basically, you've reached a point that no matter what God did to get you to believe (Short of outright force) you would reject it. So its unforgivable because it is fundamentally impossible to repent of it, if you've reached a point where you would commit that sin, you wouldn't be asking for forgiveness.

As for why someone would do it, the NT Pharisees did. I'd argue its impossible to commit today, at least under anything resembling "Normal" modern day circumstances.



Exactly how God interacts with the universe I don't know. Some Evangelicals I know think God actually actively controls every natural event, including storms, disasters, exc. while others would probably say God set the events into motion so they occur "Naturally' but that he does intervene with them at times. I can't really tell you which view is accurate, and it doesn't matter anyways.

There are two things here: Forgiveness of sin and forgiveness of a particular blasphemy. If one does not even accept the "Office" of the Holy Spirit, they would not even be able to be saved. There would be no means of salvation coming to them. The fact that it was brought up in relation to the Work of Christ as the work of the Devil himself points this out. In fact it is quite possible that any one who thinks an act of God is evil, may fall into this catagory. Can one question? of course they can. It is not the questioning, but the outright rejection of God's work in any form.

Having said that, I do not think that humans have to understand the concept to be saved. It has been referred to as the mystery of God. I think that as a Christian grows, they will come to understand it more.

It is also related to the fact that some think they can loose their salvation. Can one reject God's work after accepting it? The only way that I can think of is a total change in the way one thinks, or a psychological experience that totally changes a persons mind. To put it; "Can anyone, even a "christian" reject the Holy Spirit to the point where they no longer are able to be remorseful to change their actions or way of thinking?" I say that it is possible, if it is a willful act and not one beyond what a person can control.

Of course it matters! Either your god interacts with the Universe or he (it's a He, right?) doesn't. If he does, then there must be a manner in which that happens.

If he's doing something like causing death and destruction through a storm, then that means that variations in pressure and humidity that caused the storm to form must have been influenced by him. Difference in pressure and humidity arise through the interaction of molecules. So he must be affecting molecules. Is this what evangelicals believe?

Also, I'd like some other evangelicals to respond to the specifics of my question:

Of course it matters. Like I said above. One can question God why He allows certain things. The kicker is accepting it or not. With my limited human understanding, I accept it, understanding that God knows what he is doing. I may not like it, and it may sound cruel and mean, but there are even the best of humans who have to balance important decisions between the lesser of two evils. I also think that God allows humans to make their own decisions, even if they harm others. He does not force people to be perfect. I think that He minimizes the outcome, as opposed to sitting back and allowing total destruction with a cruel grin on his face.

I suposse you have read the bible, so, do you approve that God had the reason of saying their people to conquer the so called Holy Land? And for you is good that God helped their believers by telling them how to destroy the Jericho Walls? I mean, isn't God someone who only wants love and peace amongst humans?

God is all of existence, for without him, there would be nothing. He offers his best to all, but he does not force it on humans. There are humans who do reject God and turn others against God. There comes a point when even God brings a stop to such people and he does this through various ways including other humans.

@ Barachio

The actions of those responding to Jesus, brought about the reason that Jesus mentioned rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not just the works that Jesus did as a human. It includes all of the work of God himself. God has always worked via the Holy Spirit, even in times that he appeared in human form. Saying that this only applies to that story would not make sense. That is why there are a lot of "believers" confused on what exactly is the sin that is unforgiveable. I am also waiting to hear what others have to say on this matter. I would not say that I am an expert on this matter, but I have given what I think is a lot of thought on the matter from the Bible and what theological people have said over the past 2000 years.
 
Wouldn't it be cool if when Jesus came back he did miraculous never before seen skateboard tricks like a 1440 off a ramp or a 720 inward triple heelfip?
 
Is this a common view among Evangelicals?

And does it mean - literally - everything?
The Mars rover Curiosity's laser beam?
The third virtual particle to wink into existence next to the black hole of the galaxy 8 in from the edge of the visible universe?
Stalin's forced labor camp at the old Archangelsk monastery?

How does god interact with the Universe?

Why is such a negligible fraction of the Universe suitable for human occupation? Seems like an incredibly inefficient waste of resources, if you ask me.

I missed the finer points of this one:

From a human perspective, some may see (not all evangelicals) that the universe is the mind of God. So everything that is going on would be like us controlling the writing of a novel and that he is capable of maunipulating everything at every instant it occurs. Some see it as God started it and it maintains itself. Personally I am in the middle. For the most part the universe can carry on with out minute detail, although if God wanted to he could step in and make a "correction". Humans have the ability to control parts of the universe as in the case of space exploration, where an artificial element is effecting things on mars.

God interacts with the universe at every level known to man, and every level not known to man. He is conscious of everything in the universe. The human body in the present form is not suited for life off planet, but no one knows what being the image of God is like. I would not want to be bound by earth, but I am also not like Adam in a new place. I have thousands of years of knowledge and experience in my mind. I would hate to see a perfect me, not able to enjoy the vastness of the universe, but frankly no one knows if our perfect selves will be stuck on just this rock. I would speculate that after filling earth, we would be capable to fill others also.

Wouldn't it be cool if when Jesus came back he did miraculous never before seen skateboard tricks like a 1440 off a ramp or a 720 inward triple heelfip?

If a person had ten years of only practicing only that move, wouldn't any one be able to do it? I have purchased two skateboards (late 70's). One of them was great, but the one made for tricks, I never enjoyed because I never had the place to do any tricks. I also loved rollerblading which to me, was more enjoyable. I suppose it would be more miraculous to some keeping a skateboard in the right position, than to rollerblade the grand canyon?

Given the first chapter of Genesis, are marijuana restrictions an affront to religious freedom?

Anything that restricted religious freedom would be an affront. Is your point the restriction or the usage? If a christian broke the law to enjoy a good smoke, then he should pay the fine. I do not think that in the case of a joint, that christians have a religious leg to stand on. No where are we commanded to enjoy marijuana, it just says that it is there for us to enjoy. Isn't it just an economic factor any ways? Would not want to mess with global economy?
 
No. Both of those tricks would be quite thoroughly impossible. A 1440 is unheard of in snowboarding, and snowboards have the luxury of way more air and the board being attached to your feat. And wtf that last one would be the most ridiculous thing ever. That's some tony hawk <snip> right there.

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Anything that restricted religious freedom would be an affront. Is your point the restriction or the usage? If a christian broke the law to enjoy a good smoke, then he should pay the fine. I do not think that in the case of a joint, that christians have a religious leg to stand on. No where are we commanded to enjoy marijuana, it just says that it is there for us to enjoy. Isn't it just an economic factor any ways? Would not want to mess with global economy?
God gave us dominion over it - why should some collectivist entity take that dominion away from us? If I were a true believer, I would want to enjoy without fear of punishment what God gave to me in the first chapter of the Bible.
 
No. Both of those tricks would be quite thoroughly impossible. A 1440 is unheard of in snowboarding, and snowboards have the luxury of way more air and the board being attached to your feat. And wtf that last one would be the most ridiculous thing ever. That's some tony hawk <snip> right there.

Thanks.

God gave us dominion over it - why should some collectivist entity take that dominion away from us? If I were a true believer, I would want to enjoy without fear of punishment what God gave to me in the first chapter of the Bible.

You advocate the dark ages then? I enjoy my freedoms thank you.

Moderator Action: Quoted inappropriate language removed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
There are two things here: Forgiveness of sin and forgiveness of a particular blasphemy. If one does not even accept the "Office" of the Holy Spirit, they would not even be able to be saved. There would be no means of salvation coming to them. The fact that it was brought up in relation to the Work of Christ as the work of the Devil himself points this out. In fact it is quite possible that any one who thinks an act of God is evil, may fall into this catagory. Can one question? of course they can. It is not the questioning, but the outright rejection of God's work in any form.

Having said that, I do not think that humans have to understand the concept to be saved. It has been referred to as the mystery of God. I think that as a Christian grows, they will come to understand it more.

It is also related to the fact that some think they can loose their salvation. Can one reject God's work after accepting it? The only way that I can think of is a total change in the way one thinks, or a psychological experience that totally changes a persons mind. To put it; "Can anyone, even a "christian" reject the Holy Spirit to the point where they no longer are able to be remorseful to change their actions or way of thinking?" I say that it is possible, if it is a willful act and not one beyond what a person can control.


<snip>

@ Barachio

The actions of those responding to Jesus, brought about the reason that Jesus mentioned rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit. It is not just the works that Jesus did as a human. It includes all of the work of God himself. God has always worked via the Holy Spirit, even in times that he appeared in human form. Saying that this only applies to that story would not make sense. That is why there are a lot of "believers" confused on what exactly is the sin that is unforgiveable. I am also waiting to hear what others have to say on this matter. I would not say that I am an expert on this matter, but I have given what I think is a lot of thought on the matter from the Bible and what theological people have said over the past 2000 years.

This seems to imply that saying any event or action is the work of the devil or the Anti-Christ puts you automatically in danger of eternal damnation without possibility of reprieve. For how would you know that any particular event or action came from God or not? Indeed, ultimately all things derive from God, don't they?

So merely saying something is evil, or despicable, could be a real dodgy business.
 
This seems to imply that saying any event or action is the work of the devil or the Anti-Christ puts you automatically in danger of eternal damnation without possibility of reprieve. For how would you know that any particular event or action came from God or not? Indeed, ultimately all things derive from God, don't they?

So merely saying something is evil, or despicable, could be a real dodgy business.

God doesn't cause everything, but for it to happen He has to allow it to.We may not always know why God allows certain things.Some things may be to test and improve His people.

But I think that the Bible proves that God ultimately has the final say in everything.It also proves that God sometimes will control events to bring judgement on wicked people and even entire wicked nations.

I suposse you have read the bible, so, do you approve that God had the reason of saying their people to conquer the so called Holy Land? And for you is good that God helped their believers by telling them how to destroy the Jericho Walls? I mean, isn't God someone who only wants love and peace amongst humans?

God wants peace for mankind, but if they will not let God save them from sin and they continue in their wicked ways, then God has no choice but to bring judgement, whether on Earth, or in Hell.And in the past God has used one nation to bring judgement on another nation, and He could do that again.

Like I said, God will sometimes control events to bring judgement on wicked nations.I think the case was the same with Israel attacking the Land Of Canaan.I think somewhere in the Bible it says something like that for the wickedness of those nations in the Land Of Canaan God was giving their land to Israel.

And eventually, God's own people became too wicked in the same land and God brought judgement on them too.
 
God doesn't cause everything, but for it to happen He has to allow it to.We may not always know why God allows certain things.Some things may be to test and improve His people.

But I think that the Bible proves that God ultimately has the final say in everything.It also proves that God sometimes will control events to bring judgement on wicked people and even entire wicked nations.
This doesn't answer my question about:
blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying that Jesus did His miracles by the power of the devil.

1. Is this what it is?
2. Does it mean that saying anything that comes from God is evil, is blasphemy?
3. How can you distinguish between what comes from God and what doesn't?
4. Why should it be unforgivable?

Also:
How does the Bible prove that God has the ultimate say in everything?
How does the Bible prove that God will control events to bring judgement etc?

You see, I can accept that the Bible says these things. I just can't see that it proves them.
 
If a person had ten years of only practicing only that move, wouldn't any one be able to do it? I have purchased two skateboards (late 70's).
No, such tricks lie beyond what one has ever achieved.

No. Both of those tricks would be quite thoroughly impossible.
How do you know they're impossible? What qualifies you to judge what the bounds of human achievement are?

A 1440 is unheard of in snowboarding, and snowboards have the luxury of way more air and the board being attached to your feat.
WRONG

And wtf that last one would be the most ridiculous thing ever. That's some tony hawk [yummy yummy] right there.
Of course it is! Jesus performs miracles, why shouldn't Jesus perform them via skateboarding?



On a related note, would it not be even cooler if Jesus could teach his followers said tricks?
 
God is all of existence, for without him, there would be nothing. He offers his best to all, but he does not force it on humans. There are humans who do reject God and turn others against God. There comes a point when even God brings a stop to such people and he does this through various ways including other humans.
Isn't that paradoxically? Because you are saying he doesn't force humans, but comes a point when god need to force them. Also, why is god correct? Only because he is god? So, if he says a believer to kill his or her pets , he must follow god's orders?
 
This doesn't answer my question about:


1. Is this what it is?
2. Does it mean that saying anything that comes from God is evil, is blasphemy?
3. How can you distinguish between what comes from God and what doesn't?
4. Why should it be unforgivable?

Also:
How does the Bible prove that God has the ultimate say in everything?
How does the Bible prove that God will control events to bring judgement etc?

You see, I can accept that the Bible says these things. I just can't see that it proves them.

There may be a difference in accepting something and understanding it? From what I have seen seeking proof does not work. Trying to prove most complex ideas without comprehending the basic building blocks, may not work. This is a simple analogy, but the only one that I can think of from personal experience. How does a person learn to ride a bike without proving that balance exist? Until one experinces the "feeling" of balance, they do not have it. I put feeling in quotes, because that is what some claim about God, "It is just a feeling". Is balance just a feeling?

I think I get the point that there are those who accept what the Bible says, but they do not experience God. It is more than reading the Bible, for God reveals himself to people. This would tend to raise the question, "Why has God not revealed himself to me?" I would think that is a more important question than how can one prove the Bible. Only God can prove the Bible and only after he reveals himself. It is frustrating trying to teach a person how to ride a bike.

No, such tricks lie beyond what one has ever achieved.


How do you know they're impossible? What qualifies you to judge what the bounds of human achievement are?

WRONG

Of course it is! Jesus performs miracles, why shouldn't Jesus perform them via skateboarding?



On a related note, would it not be even cooler if Jesus could teach his followers said tricks?

If some one related to that experience, I would agree with you.

Isn't that paradoxically? Because you are saying he doesn't force humans, but comes a point when god need to force them. Also, why is god correct? Only because he is god? So, if he says a believer to kill his or her pets , he must follow god's orders?

I am pretty sure that when God gives one an order, they will know that it is only from God.

Does God exist for a reason?

Does the universe exist for a reason?

For one who holds that God is the only reason that anything exist, trying to figure out why God exist seems fruitless. I suppose the reason that God exist is so that everything else could also exist, though that sounds a little circular. That does not exclude the possibilty that there is not a reason outside of human knowledge, but with human knowledge all I can say is, "I don't know."
 
This doesn't answer my question about:


1. Is this what it is?
2. Does it mean that saying anything that comes from God is evil, is blasphemy?
3. How can you distinguish between what comes from God and what doesn't?
4. Why should it be unforgivable?

Question1:Well, Jesus spoke of blaspheming the Holy Ghost, I think, when the Pharisees accused Him of casting out devils by the prince of devils.That may imply that what they said was blaspheming against the Holy Ghost.In other words, they were saying that something that had been done by the Power of the Holy Ghost had been done by the prince of devils.I don't know for sure, though.

Question2:Saying that about anything that comes from God may be considered blasphemy, but the way Jesus said what He said, it makes it sound like that any other sin will be forgiven except blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.But once again, I couldn't tell you for sure.

Question3:I think in one of John's letters it says to "try the spirits', to see whether they are of God or not.Paul spoke of what he preached as simply "Jesus Christ and Him Crucified", and warned the Galatians that if anyone, even an angel, preached any other message than what they heard from Paul and his associates, then let them be accursed.

To tell if something is of God, determine whether it is Scriptural or not.If someone comes saying something that God's Word does not say, then it is not from God.Study the Bible so you will know whether something is Scriptural or not, and pray to God for understanding of His Word.

Question4:I really don't know why that is, but I know that if Jesus said it would not be forgiven, that there is some reason for it.

Also:
How does the Bible prove that God has the ultimate say in everything?

Well, one instance of such a thing is when Satan wanted to do afflict Job.Satan basically admitted that he could not do anything to Job if God did not allow it.God did allow him to do bad things to Job, but not to hurt Job himself, and Satan could not do that.He was only able to hurt Job himself when God finally allowed him to, and even then God would not let him kill Job.

I think the Bible also says, in my own words, that God will not allow us to be tempted above that we are able to resist.God also has the final say in how strong of temptations we receive.

How does the Bible prove that God will control events to bring judgement etc?

The Books of The Prophets in the Old Testament state that both the kingdoms of Israel, after they were divided, were deep in sin and that sin was the reason for their judgement.And it shows that God was controlling events to bring that judgement on them.

There are also other nations that God brought judgement on in the Old Testament.The Bible says that He is God, and that He changes not.What He did then, He could just as easily do now.

Isn't that paradoxically? Because you are saying he doesn't force humans, but comes a point when god need to force them. Also, why is god correct? Only because he is god? So, if he says a believer to kill his or her pets , he must follow god's orders?

I believe there are times when God will only let mankind go so far in what they want to do, even though He does give us freewill.

God is correct in all His Ways.People may think that they can find fault in Him, but they cannot.Even what they think to be fault is not.

God is infinitely more wise and powerful than any of us, so He knows what is right and what is wrong.And God is not lying about what is right and what is wrong, for the Bible says that God cannot lie.And I know that He would not lie anyway.

You should do whatever God tells you to do.I personally don't see any reason why God would tell you to kill your pets, but you should still obey Him if He did.We may not always know why God tells us to do certain things, but, like I said, He is infinitely more Wise than we are, and He knows what we need more than we do.

And the Bible says that all things work together for the good to them that love God, who are the called according to His purpose.
 
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