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Ask an Evangelical IV

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by GhostWriter16, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. Siderealex

    Siderealex Chieftain

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    This, I'm afraid, is one of those things I have to file in the "I can't trust evangelicals on." issues.
     
  2. Trev

    Trev Prince

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    The rich man had claimed that he had kept all the ten commandments. These include love the Lord God with all your heart, with all your mind etc. The rich man's reaction to Jesus request proved that this commandment was being disobeyed as his love for his money was greater than his love for God. That is why he went away sorrowful as he realised he had not kept all of God's commandments perfect and was not capable of keeping them despite his earlier statement that he had faithfully kept them all.
     
  3. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Of course it's right to be rich. We like rich. That means it's alright. We only don't like things that are not alright, so it has to be.
     
  4. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    That sounds like complaining? :sad:
     
  5. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Neither the commandment to love God nor to commandment to love your Neighbors were listed in the Ten Commandments. They are found in the Law of Moses though, and Jesus elsewhere made it clear they they are the most important commandments.

    (It should be noted that in this Jesus was expressing a very common Jewish position, particularly among the followers of Rabbi Hillel. The House of Hillel were Pharisees who focused on trying to understand the underlying principles behind the commandments, whereas the House of Shammai were Pharisees who tended to be more strict about adhering to the letter of the law. The House of Shammai was also known for having far more hypocritical members (although Rabbi Shammai was considered far from hypocritical), and was almost always less influential than the House of Hillel except during the period when Jesus's ministry would have taken place. Jesus actually seems to have agreed with the House of Hillel on practically everything except for divorce. Hillel permitted husbands to divorce their wives for any reason, whereas Jesus restricted divorce even more strictly than Shammai did.)


    Many of the early church fathers belied that the Gospel of Matthew was based on the Gospel of the Hebrews. There are no extant full copies of the Gospel of the Hebrews, but several passages were quoted by various early Christian writers. Here is the relevant passage quoted by Origen:
    As you can see, here Jesus says that the rich man broke the second great commandment rather than the greatest commandment.

    Of course, 1 John 4 argues that it is impossible to keep the greatest commandment without keeping the second, so you can say he broke that one too.
     
  6. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    IIRC Hillel allowed divorce anytime and Shammai only for adultery. Is that right?

    Is it your view (I suppose this is an open question to any Evangelicals or even theologians that may be reading the thread as well) that Jesus was also forbidding divorce for adultery? I know Matthew explicitly includes that exception while Mark and Luke do not.
     
  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

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    Hillel allowed divorce for any reason, so long as the man gave his wife an official bill of divorce which made it clear that the marriage was over and that both parties were free to remarry someone else.

    Shammai allowed divorce only for serious transgressions. This would usually mean adultery, but could also include things like attempted murder or trying to get him to worship false gods. He too required that the husband grant a bill of divorce, and allowed both parties to remarry.

    Jesus allowed divorce only in cases of serious sexual immorality. The word used is usually taken to man adultery, but there are some who think it may refer to something else. They argue that he is actually referring to annulling marriages which were invalid to begin, due to things like incest or the woman already being married to someone else. Furthermore, Jesus did not permit remarriage after a divorce.
     
  8. Harv

    Harv Emperor

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    Acts 4:34 says there was not a needy person among them because all who owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds . . . and laid them at the Apostles' feet. I can understand Acts 5:4 making it clear that this is not a requirement. Then Acts 4:24 would mean everybody did it voluntarily. Is this what you mean?

    First Corinthians 16:1 to 3 would make things more clear. This implies that the instructions to the Corinthians, and the Galatians (and probably other churches Paul visited) were to set aside money on the first day of the week.
     
  9. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    Nah, just an observation.

    This is a good question.
    How can you say, I have fulfilled the law and the prophets, when it is written in the law: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself,' and many of your brothers, sons of Abraham, are covered with filth, dying of hunger, and your house is full of many good things, none of which goes out to them?”
     
  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I didn't know that Gospel of the Hebrews passage existed. I'm strongly of the opinion that the majority of Christians don't interpret the story of the rich man 'correctly', and that they put the faith-emphasis in the wrong place. The faith doesn't get the rich man to heaven, the faith allows the rich man to be able to give away all his possessions.
     
  11. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Now, that's interesting. If I may so.
     
  12. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    Is that not what I have been saying? If one is to trust God, with any command given, then they will not worry about life. Not that everything will be taking care of, but understanding fully what the will of God is.

    How can God be fully known, if we do not even get close to God? I don't think that it is on our terms either.

    Science is not on our terms either. We observe what we know, but we cannot just make things up, we can only go with what we observe. I think that God is the same way. We can not create God, but we are able to try and figure God out via his terms. Science dwells in what we can see. God dwells in what we cannot, but both can be observed, if we are willing to put in the effort.
     
  13. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    It is what you have been saying. But how many can so fully trust in God that they can give away everything they own? Though a few do.

    And if you (still - and it may not be you, tim) say that doesn't mean you actually have to give away everything, that seems to me like an alcoholic saying "I'm not an alcoholic. I could give it up any time. I just choose not to."

    As for making "the effort", what effort? What can you do to put yourself in touch with God?
     
  14. Siderealex

    Siderealex Chieftain

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    Don't mind me.
     
  15. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    This has been demonstrated to be wrong by yours truly who has put a lot of effort in this due to social pressure.
     
  16. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    There are some who cannot comprehend science, so they never get to put in the effort. I never said that all have the ability. I said that it was doable, but not by all so it seems. Perhaps it is better to try and not succeed, than to have the opportunity and refuse to put in the effort. If there is going to be a final judgment, I think that many will be suprised at the outcome. It seems from my experience that faith is more than feelings.
     
  17. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    I am convinced that if there is such a thing as God, it wants me to be atheist, because of the effort I put in and the opportunity I gave it to make itself known to me :)
     
  18. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    How do you know that God, if he exists (we should abbreviate this to God, i.h.e., I think), hasn't been with you all along, but you just haven't recognized it?


    Link to video.
     
  19. Siderealex

    Siderealex Chieftain

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    Je n'avais pas besoin de cette hypothese-la.
     
  20. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    I don't.

    But I have made the effort, I did look, I was very willing, at one time even desperate, to receive any kind of sign. Since God is God he would know what kind of sign I would recognize. So, either he is with me and does not give the kind of signs I recognize, or he's not and there is no sign to recognize, or he is and he's a sneaky bastard chuckling at all the signs I'm missing while I am bumbling around looking for them.
     

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