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Ask an Evangelical IV

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by GhostWriter16, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    You are not responsible for any one else. You only have to anwser for yourself. The Hebrews knew they did not have to answer for a & e. In fact they held that sin only limited 3 to 4 generations. There was the 50 year jubilee that set everything straight again. The notion of "original sin" was a mis-interpretation of the writings of "Paul". All Paul said is that death was passed on, in that all die. He did not say that we have to be held accountable for a. In fact, he said that Jesus was the only one who was held in account on the cross, and that God was satisfied. Most people just throw Jesus out with the bath water (God).

    Spoiler :
    Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised? Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God. If some of them were unfaithful, so what? Does their faithlessness cancel God’s faithfulness? Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! — as the Tanakh says,


    “so that you, God, may be proved right in your words
    and win the verdict when you are put on trial.”

    Now if our unrighteousness highlights God’s righteousness, what should we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict his anger on us? (I am speaking here the way people commonly do.) Heaven forbid! Else, how could God judge the world? “But,” you say, “if, through my lie, God’s truth is enhanced and brings him greater glory, why am I still judged merely for being a sinner?” Indeed! Why not say (as some people slander us by claiming we do say), “Let us do evil, so that good may come of it”? Against them the judgment is a just one!

    So are we Jews better off? Not entirely; for I have already made the charge that all people, Jews and Gentiles alike, are controlled by sin. As the Tanakh puts it,


    “There is no one righteous, not even one!
    No one understands,
    no one seeks God,
    all have turned away
    and at the same time become useless;
    there is no one who shows kindness, not a single one!

    “Their throats are open graves,
    they use their tongues to deceive.
    Vipers’ venom is under their lips.
    Their mouths are full of curses and bitterness.


    “Their feet rush to shed blood,
    in their ways are ruin and misery,
    and the way of shalom they do not know.


    “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

    Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God’s adverse judgment. For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are.

    But now, quite apart from Torah, God’s way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear — although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well — and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile, since all have sinned and come short of earning God’s praise. By God’s grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being considered righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by the Messiah Yeshua. God put Yeshua forward as the kapparah for sin through his faithfulness in respect to his bloody sacrificial death. This vindicated God’s righteousness; because, in his forbearance, he had passed over [with neither punishment nor remission] the sins people had committed in the past; and it vindicates his righteousness in the present age by showing that he is righteous himself and is also the one who makes people righteous on the ground of Yeshua’s faithfulness.


    Some may hold that being controlled by sin is the same as being accountable. I have no reason to believe that. We all are selfish and tend to put our desires first. Being selfish is not wrong, unless we use it to wrong others (which would be "sin") The fact that we are all useless before God is true, since God cannot be approached in our current state.

    @ Borachio

    Ones man mental is another man's treasure.

    Some claim that Genesis was accounted for political purposes. To ensure the Hebrews place as a nation. Why would any one in their right mind set a strict LAW, that would be so easily broken, easily kept, but allow a nation to fall apart and come back together again. Would not a kingdom or even democracy have been a better choice?
     
  2. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    In the last thread, we were discussing the ability to live sinless lives (with God's help). People thought it was not actually possible, that there was no level of faith that would allow such a miracle. Could people expound upon how Heaven could work, then? If "free will" is essential, and sin is a consequence of free will, how will there be no sin in Heaven? And, importantly, why cannot a faith-based life achieve something similar on Earth?
     
  3. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    How about you show me how, and I'll copy you?
     
  4. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    God could do it if he wanted to, but he doesn't see fit to do so with human beings while they still live on Earth. Jesus being the exception, of course.

    I would also like to say that Timtofly's assertion that original sin is false is not an orthodox Evangelical viewpoint.

    Regarding sinlessness on Earth, the fact that Paul still clearly sinned at times, even late in his Christian walk (Like when he called the High Priest a "Whitewashed wall"), well, if even Paul can't live perfectly, nor could David (The "Man who walked after God's own heart) I seriously doubt that anyone can. 1 John 1:9 seems to imply the impossibility as well, it essentially assumes that Christians will (At times) sin.
     
  5. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    :lol:
    There is no such thing as orthodoxy in Evangelicalism
     
  6. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    Ok here is how it works:
    Spoiler :
    It was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned. Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah. Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come.

    But the free gift is not like the offence. For if, because of one man’s offence, many died, then how much more has God’s grace, that is, the gracious gift of one man, Yeshua the Messiah, overflowed to many! No, the free gift is not like what resulted from one man’s sinning; for from one sinner came judgment that brought condemnation; but the free gift came after many offences and brought acquittal. For if, because of the offence of one man, death ruled through that one man; how much more will those receiving the overflowing grace, that is, the gift of being considered righteous, rule in life through the one man Yeshua the Messiah!


    People today seem to take on the sin of Adam, and that is why it is called the "original sin". It is true that Adam directly disobeyed God, but that sin was not passed down. Only the death from sin was passed down. It is also said that in Adam all died. (we are his seed), but it does not say that all have Adam's sin. Why do you think that the "church" baptizes babies? It is not for their sin, but the sin of Adam. That "original" sin needs to be baptized away. If evangelicals were that orthodox, they would have to baptize babies.

    It is interesting to note that one man did not sin: Enoch. He walked with God so much that one day God took him to heaven. So it is possible to be free from sin and death at the same time. Now people can reject that notion, but they will have to live with the fact that all will die.
     
  7. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    If Adamm is dead, hasn't his sin already been paid for?
     
  8. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    So people before Adam didn't die. Where are they? And we have found human remains that predate Adam. Wait, there's a mystery here.
     
  9. Ziggy Stardust

    Ziggy Stardust New Englander

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    They only pre-date Adam if you use science. As creationists have shown us, there are many ways to rationalise those remains into the desired time frame.
     
  10. Borachio

    Borachio Way past lunacy

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    Oh yeah. I was forgetting that. Easily done.
     
  11. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    Creation science would have a way to explain that, but I don't know what it is.

    We really need Classical_Hero for the scientific questions. That's not my department.
     
  12. Heerlo

    Heerlo Jedi Master Hearlo

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    I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but water Baptism cannot save anyone, not even a newborn baby.It cannot wash away any sin.I think it is only symbolic of the True Baptism, which is Baptism into Christ and into His death.That is the only Baptism that can save us and wash away our sin.

    I think it may be possible for one of God's people to get to a point that they no longer sin at all, even though I believe we will always have the sin nature.I do think, though, that after someone gets saved, there may be, and probably will be, times when they mess up and commit a sin.But God helps us to grow in the Faith, and corrects us, and, I believe, makes us stronger and better Christians.I think it is just a growing process.

    I'm not certain, but I think there may be some Biblical evidence that there were people on the Earth before Adam.I don't know for sure though.
     
  13. _random_

    _random_ Jewel Runner

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    Some have suggested a gap between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. The evidence within the Bible that this happened is thin, but a pretty extensive mythology developed around this idea, based on the Flood of Lucifer leaving the earth void and without form and covered in water. Some other options:
    1) The world was created appearing to be millions of years old, just as Adam and Eve were created as adults.
    2) Science is wrong and those bones are really just a few thousand years old.
    3) Science is right and Genesis isn't completely literal.
     
  14. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    I go with #1 for the record, although its not the hill I'm dying on.

    I suspect random (Based on what I know of him) holds to #3. I don't think many Evangelicals do, but most other Christians do.

    I think defending other "People" on the Earth before Adam in a meaningful sense is pretty tough to do Biblically, although again, its not the hill I'm dying on. Its really not a huge deal IMO.
     
  15. Owen Glyndwr

    Owen Glyndwr La Femme Moderne

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    It's not really his either.
     
  16. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    When it comes to creation science, he knows what he's talking about, whether you think its worth anything or not. I, admittedly, don't.
     
  17. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    Every one's sins are paid for. It seems to me that a lot of people do not want to know they have sinned, and some seem to not want any one else to pay for their sins, if they had any.

    @ KP

    Have you convinced all those people out there that they cannot trust in their infant baptism to put them on the road to heaven? There are also a lot of people that trust the saying, "repent, and be baptized". Are there some who think that God is going to send them to hell if they have not been batized?
     
  18. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    Well there is simply no one before Adam. The bible clearly states that death is a result of Adam's sin. Also it says that death is our enemy and yet since you believe in Evolution, you have to believe that death is natural and part of evolutions plan for us, whereas we say that death is there so that we can be removed from our sinful bodies. Jesus' death was done so that we can be able to have eternal life with him. Even evolutionists believe that we have a single female ancestor that we came from, due to genetic evidence.
     
  19. GhostWriter16

    GhostWriter16 Deity

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    Yes, there are people with those views (That you have to be baptized to be saved.) I don't share them though.

    While Peter does seem to put "Repent" and "Be baptized" together as a requirement for Salvation, he doesn't explicitly say this, he simply says that both are commands. Paul, on the other hand, is specific that its "Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ" by which you are saved.
     
  20. uppi

    uppi Deity

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    No, scientists don't believe that. The genetic evidence says that modern humans had a few thousands ancestors at one point. It doesn't say that we have a single female ancestor, that would be a huge misunderstanding of the evidence.

    And while we're at it: "creation science" is not related to science at all.
     

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