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Ask not for whom the trolls troll - they troll for thee

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by JollyRoger, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    If i had written about you what you have written about me, repeatedly, i would have looked at bans.
    In fact i'd be lucky to come back from them.

    So there's that.

    Don't get me wrong: I like you. That's in fact what i told you in the face of your unmitigated tirades.
    You're a bit emotional at times. Well, fine.
    The point is: I can't be. I'm not afforded that humanity. Our dear friends on the staff would come crashing down on me like a cartoonish piano.

    Actually i can, just not on the board. I rant at Arakhor or Boots for some time if i'm really upset and they are so nice as to pretend i was consistently... normal.
     
  2. Synsensa

    Synsensa Warlord Retired Moderator

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    Why is this suddenly a personal jab at me? You quoted me and I responded by saying that everyone needs to behave appropriately regardless of their beliefs. Now this is about my unmitigated tirades, my emotional instability, my apparent abuse of you, and the staff's lack of treating you humanely?

    I don't understand. How does this connect to the subject at hand?
     
  3. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    The point is that this is not true.
    People are held to that obligation to a different degree.
    If you are upset, you are upset.
    If i am upset, i am malevolent.
     
  4. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    A lot of people probably think you are malevolent whether you are upset or not. Which sort of brings us back to the point. I "get away with" plenty of tirades. It is a well known fact among current and past moderators that tirades are how I respond to trolls. Frequently my tirades are what finally gets the moderators to notice that there is in fact a troll on the loose. They don't like it, and they give me infractions for it, but they are generally 'no harm no foul just don't do it too often' infractions, not 'bounce, you are outta here' infractions because under all their rule enforcement outsides, I believe on the inside moderators think "trolls deserve it" just like everyone else does.

    Now, there are people who just go flying into a tirade at anyone or everyone. They get into trouble. There are people who hold so tight to a grudge that they find a way to be mad when the target of the grudge tells them happy birthday. Sometimes they get into trouble.

    There are people who blatantly misread a post, and then fly into a tirade, and everyone can see not only that they misread it but exactly how they misread it, and I think they generally get laughed at and don't get infracted at all because they are a sort of comic relief that is good to have around.

    So, yeah, "people are held to that obligation to a different degree," and they should be.
     
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  5. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    Well, i accept, for argument's sake, your speculation on the mod staff's motivations.

    This is the way i see the above:

    There are members of the community.
    And then there are trolls (i suppose that would be me).
    Everything they write, they write because you have opinions.
    Everything i write, i write because i have an agenda.
    If they get insulted or name-called that is a violation of the rules.
    If i get insulted or name-called that is justified cleansing of the board.
    If they defend themself, that is understandable.
    If i defend myself, i am retroactively at fault for getting insulted.

    The entire point of this thread is that you (and a number of others) desire even more of this asymmetry.
     
  6. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    No, actually it wouldn't.

    Are your opinions widely disagreed with? Yes, they are.
    Do you frequently get in arguments about them? Yes, you do.
    Do you get flamed for your opinions by people who "get away with it"? No, you don't.

    You get flamed a lot, in my observation, because as soon as someone challenges your opinions (which you have to be expecting they will) you often immediately devolve into saying some variation of "you aren't arguing fairly."* Then you get abused for taking a position that appears to be "I can't or won't defend what I said so I have to just fight about the way you are disagreeing." You are picking those fights then complaining when you and whoever you are fighting with get into trouble for it, but the initial statement of your divergent opinion isn't trolling, or particularly unwelcome.

    The trolling happens when someone (not you) states an 'opinion' of the form "black is white." Then when someone posts a color chart that clearly shows black as not white the troll will respond "thanks, see the chart you posted shows that black is white." Facts can be cited, court rulings referenced, whatever, and the response will be "see, everyone but you agrees that black is white, why do you keep citing evidence that proves my point?" Eventually someone asks "are you stupid, or lying, or trolling?" they get infracted and the troll is satisfied. Until three days or a week later when they appear and say "black is white." Some of our trolls have been around so long that no one even bothers to argue with them, they just immediately flame them since that's where it is going to end up. Those are the trolls being discussed here, not you.



    *Some cliched thing like "strawman," which is perhaps the most misused term on this entire forum since it almost always is used when no strawman is even in the vicinity. I think there must have been a time long before I came along where people were just totally cowed by claims that they were strawmanning, because it was the first resort attack for a lot of people when I got here. A lot of my first year or so here was spent asking "can you explain how the heck you think that was a strawman?"
     
  7. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    I disagree with you assessment wholeheartedly and decidedly.
    However is feel at this point that a demonstration to the effect of the contrary, both involving my person and involving others in similar situations (my arguments at this point would actually start with examples in the latter category) would increasingly have to trespass rules on PDMA.

    That being said:
    I regard pretty much the entirety of your refutation as mere semantics.
    Maybe you believe in that difference. That's fair.
    I don't.
    To me this thread is about ramping up the relative outlawry i and a number of other users "enjoy" here.
    I could hand you a list of names. I could have handed you a list when the thread started.
    We'd get to PDMA fairly quickly.

    What you do, in my view, not appreciate, is that the distinction you have made is arbitrary.
    One (the supposed troll) can say anything - all you need is some balance of staff members who say "this is like saying black is white" and you have the desired outlawry.
    -> Profit.

    PS:
    Actually, let me make this clear:
    I'm not obligated to defend some thing or another that i didn't actually say, just because one of your social justice friends who roam this board calling people names claim i said it (in error or in bad faith), in order to be entitled decency and humanity and not be deserving of abuse.

    I'd like to categorically reject that notion.
    Thank you very much.
     
  8. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Heck, I "handed a list" to the administration before this thread even started. You weren't on it, and you still aren't. Your posting history, readily available to review, wouldn't support you being on it.
     
  9. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    I assume this is because you already tried reporting the individual and saw that nothing was done in any timely way.

    I'll admit that I was surprised and not a little shocked to see you'd started that thread. It was a nice thing to do, but please understand that all through it, I kept wondering why you did it. It's no surprise that we don't get along on either here or IALS and given the juxtaposition of birthday greetings here and abusive PMs on the other forum (if you recall, this was shortly before the blowup that resulted in both of us leaving there for several months), I hope you realize that I saw this as an anomalous nice gesture in a storm of other things that were just deliberately cruel. In no way does it make up for the dozens (at a conservative guesstimate; it's actually likely over a hundred) posts that were made with the full knowledge that they would antagonize me.

    It's called blaming/punishing the target, who gets the infraction while the perpetrator skates. It's a common thing on some forums (I first noticed this over 10 years ago on another forum where some of the staff settled grudges by getting a buddy to provoke someone, then hammering the target with an infraction or other penalty; one time it got so blatant that enough members protested on the target's behalf and the staff member - one of the admins, no less - was demoted).
     
  10. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Not really. I'm not much of a report guy. Plus, the trolls being discussed here are the sort that are difficult to report. As I told @metatron, "black is white" isn't exactly a rules violation in itself. But when you have someone who shows up every couple days with the same debunked nonsense and states it yet again as proven fact it does grate on people...and the people who do it are certainly aware of that by this point. So I flame them, hard, and get reported. Usually the mods review the thread, tell the troll to knock it off, then they give me a petty infraction and everyone is happy. The troll thinks they "got me." Everyone else gets relief from the troll and hopefully some amusement from the flamefest. All's well that ends well.
     
  11. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    Sure it is:

    "Trolling is posting something with the intent to annoy or to generate a negative reaction from other people. It can be interpreted as anything for which it is reasonably foreseeable (in the moderators' opinion) that someone will react to it."

    "Posting a thread on a controversial topic, but not posting anything that is really a point for discussion."


    The "nice" posters do this all the time.
     
  12. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    So, you are in favor. Good to know. I'd like to see some of that "in the opinion" codified here, because I think the well known trolls are pretty capable of making our moderators miserable through "how do you know what I intended?" based appeals.
     
  13. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    I have rendered no value judgement on the rule in my last post.
    From my other comments it can easily be infered that i may, quite likely, find the rule problematic.

    I'm telling you that part of what you desire already exists.
     
  14. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    I was referring to "the nice posters do this all the time." If that's the case weren't you implying that more codified enforcement against it is called for?
     
  15. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    No.
    On the contrary.
     
  16. Valka D'Ur

    Valka D'Ur Hosting Iron Pen in A&E Retired Moderator

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    I know from experience that moderators' badges do not come with the gift of telepathy. For a moderator on any forum to tell me that they know my thoughts and intentions better than I do myself is profoundly disrespectful and insulting.

    Note that the above does not mean that I include myself among whatever trolls the poster is talking about, but it is true that certain individuals tend to misunderstand my posts and refuse to listen to any clarification; as the saying goes, "My mind is made up; don't bother me with facts."

    How can a moderator begin to understand when a post by a particular user is likely to antagonize a particular other user unless they take the time to learn something of the history between those two users? During my time on staff, once I understood that a "feud" relationship existed between certain users, I tried to find out why it existed, what sorts of things would likely touch off another argument, and discovered that this was helpful in deciding how to deal with the situation. In one case I was able to help resolve the feud so it no longer existed.
     
  17. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    It isn't about "knowing the troll's intentions better than they know them." It's about knowing their intentions better than they are willing to admit.

    As an example, there's a running joke that goes "buuuut her e-maillllllls!" It's a joke, and funny, because it is founded on truth. There are a couple posters who can be counted on whenever there is a discussion about Donald Trump's potential crimes to bomb the thread with something on the order of "Why didn't you call for the prosecution of Hillary Clinton then?" As is said in law, the results could be predicted by any reasonable person. It really doesn't matter whether the troll can be proven to have had the intention, because if they didn't they certainly should have. That's why I routinely get in trouble for asking "are you a troll or an idiot?" when people do that.

    Citing that general example is as close to PDMA as I am willing to go, so I'm not going to discuss your various conflicts beyond saying that I don't count you among the trolls being discussed here either.
     
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  18. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Entangled Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Nice post Ms. Merchant. I think you have captured many of the moderator's dilemmas. I fully support treating situations as they arise and forgoing strict rules when things are complicated. I think that the staff is doing an excellent job moderating OT. There is just the right amount of complaining about how terrible you all are.

    One important aspect of moderating is to explain why you did something in such a way that it is clearly understood by more than those infracted or chastised. OT is different from the civ forums and needs a different hand. Thank you all, LM, Arakhor and Peter, very much.
     
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  19. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Another drone in the hive mind

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    Soooooo...three months. Same trolls still trolling, for the same thee.
     
  20. metatron

    metatron deplorable ally

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    I rest on my previous remarks sharply disagreeing with that sentiment.
    Diversity in OT, particularly the presence of non-anglospherians as well as conservatives (let alone outright Republicans) has all but collapsed.
    And that's not a matter of chance.
    The board is in terrible shape.
     

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