Asoka - 100% Research 90% of the time - No Tech Trades - Immortal
- Thread starter OneLeggedRhino
- Start date
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
3-Turn Engineering (Turns 474-516, Years 870-1080 AD)
870 AD: Perecles finally completes Angkor Wat, giving me 2400 failgold. From 880 AD on (when the failgold actually registers), I run 100% espionage this entire turnset.
First target: Rangor's cities. Here's a globe-view map so you can see where he is.
I check out the spy options. Those are some pretty good rates. About 2/3 the beaker cost for each tech. But we can do better.
I steal Poly- and Monotheism, swap to Organized Religion, and make 2 missionaries. (I also swap to Slavery to some infrastructure, double-whipping the newest cities).
Why 2 missionaries? In case one fails. I would have gone 3, except that Delhi didn't have Taoism at the start of the turnset (it spread naturally while running OR).
While that's happening, the palace finishes in Commerce, adding about 50 EPT. I love how the Bureaucracy multiplier works.
And I get enough EP against everyone to see their research:
Perecles is going Astronomy. Damn, I'd hoped my control of the seas would last longer. Also, you know how weak my military is? (Since no one can get to me yet). Well, Saladin only has 0.8 times me. I'm guessing that's because I'm ahead techs and population, not because he also has 1 warrior in every city.
Back to spying. I spread Taoism to Rangar's city. Now these are some good prices:
(Remember, techs cost 3x as much on marathon).
Gilgamesh finishes Optics and starts on Astronomy. Next turn, he goes into "preparing for war" status (the fist on the scoreboard).
Who's he going for?
I'm guessing me. Time to prepare for war. I'll focus on Galleons, to stop his invasion before it starts. By the end of the turnset, I have a line of them around the NW quarter of my continent. (I'll also build up some land forces, but not enough to stop a real invasion for a while).
Now that I have stats on everyone, let's check the info screen:
Demographics. I'm not doing so great. Isolated starts are like that, since you can't pick on a weak neighbor.
The info screen. Athens looks like a nice city, but it'll be a while before I'm taking on Perecles.
And the EP screen. Missions cost 67% vs Rangar, 89% vs Perecles. This is part of why the Espionage Economy works so well: You wind up with an overall multiplier just for running it.
Perecles will be my next target. He's the tech lead, I have an EP advantage, and he has a city almost as close as Munsa's:
That shot is the turn I spread Taoism. I got lucky, going 2 for 2 with missionaries. By the way, Perecles doesn't have a state religion because he got the Shadwin Paya and is in Free Religion. He has plenty of religions in his cities.
The final set of techs from Rangar. At 400 EP per turn,Feudalism costs 2.5 turns. (Remember, 3x costs on marathon).
We discover silver in SW Seafood. This turnset, I also discover copper and another silver by Delhi. Some great luck.
(I think this is a flat probability per turn. That's why it never happens on normal, but routinely happens on marathon. Three of them is still really lucky, though).
My research screen:
So far, I've stolen Poly, Mono, Hunting, Archery, Priesthood, Horseback Riding, Monarchy, Construction and Feudalism. Later this turnset, I'll add Guilds and Engineering. This is my first time playing a dedicated Espionage Economy (rather than just stealing a couple techs lategame), and it's amazing.
Tech screen:
I'm catching up.
1055 AD: Another Great Spy. Most games I don't get any, here I've gotten two. I settle him in Commerce for 10 beakers and 24 EP per turn. (Though looking back, maybe I should have sent him on a mission vs Perecles? Like I said, I'm new to a dedicated EE).
I also notice that I can steal 91 G for 51 EP (which costs me about 30 commerce). Nice. Normally, I never steal gold because it's just not a good enough return. But here, it's totally worth it. Maybe I'll run some more theft missions on other AIs.
Theft options from Perecles. Everything is about 1/2 its research cost.
What to steal? Rangar is researching Engineering, and I have a better EP-ratio against him. I'm most of the way to Nationalism, just from specialist beakers. So I grab Guilds to help my workshops. (No horses on my island, sadly).
Update on the AIs' research:
Gilgamesh has Astronomy, going for guns. Still preparing for war, and without tech trades, my bribing options are limited. (I ask Stalin about closing borders with Perecles, he wants 600 G for it. Pass).
Perecles is working on Constitution, and will have it a few turns before my Nationalism comes in. I'll finish my research, steal Con, and build some jails. My next self-research will probably be gunpowder. Espionage with Representation is great, since you can keep a decent SE-based research going while you spy.
The screenshot didn't come out, but I also steal Engineering from Rangar. It won't give me the option until I have over 2600 EP (the amount it lists on the espionage screen), but because of the stationary spy, it only costs 1300. Seems like a bug.
Also, at 1300 EP, that's 3 turns to steal Engineering. No way could I research it that fast.
Tech screen at the end of the turnset:
And the minimap:
I'm purple in the East. The offshore dots are my defense against Gilgamesh, who's the dark blue along the East side of the large continent. Perecles is the light blue that I can see, and I'm lucky he grabbed that city by Munsa for easier and cheaper spying. Stalin is the Red to the NW of that continent, and Munsa is the brown close to me.
The other continent is Rangar and Saladin. I'll get their map once I steal Paper. Rangar has 10 cities, Saladin 5. (It was 11 v 4 for a while, so they're still fighting).
I'm starting to build an army to conquer Saladin. It will probably take 1-2 turnsets, since I don't plan to whip it (there's no rush, and I care more about my economy than my military right now). I'll use Rangar as my landing site, conquer Saladin, then turn right back around and conquer Rangar.
My tech rate this turnset: 2 turns at 0%, 40 turns at 100%. Add this together with the previous turnset (getting Astronomy) and I'm running research / EP about 75% of the time, which is the same as the turnset before Astronomy. Probably a more reasonable goal than 90% of the time, but reasonable goals make for boring games. At this point, 70% is my breakeven, so I may be able to make 90% from here on out.
Goals for next turnset:
870 AD: Perecles finally completes Angkor Wat, giving me 2400 failgold. From 880 AD on (when the failgold actually registers), I run 100% espionage this entire turnset.
Spoiler :
First target: Rangor's cities. Here's a globe-view map so you can see where he is.
Spoiler :
I check out the spy options. Those are some pretty good rates. About 2/3 the beaker cost for each tech. But we can do better.
Spoiler :
I steal Poly- and Monotheism, swap to Organized Religion, and make 2 missionaries. (I also swap to Slavery to some infrastructure, double-whipping the newest cities).
Why 2 missionaries? In case one fails. I would have gone 3, except that Delhi didn't have Taoism at the start of the turnset (it spread naturally while running OR).
While that's happening, the palace finishes in Commerce, adding about 50 EPT. I love how the Bureaucracy multiplier works.
And I get enough EP against everyone to see their research:
Spoiler :
Perecles is going Astronomy. Damn, I'd hoped my control of the seas would last longer. Also, you know how weak my military is? (Since no one can get to me yet). Well, Saladin only has 0.8 times me. I'm guessing that's because I'm ahead techs and population, not because he also has 1 warrior in every city.
Back to spying. I spread Taoism to Rangar's city. Now these are some good prices:
Spoiler :
(Remember, techs cost 3x as much on marathon).
Gilgamesh finishes Optics and starts on Astronomy. Next turn, he goes into "preparing for war" status (the fist on the scoreboard).
Spoiler :
Who's he going for?
Spoiler :
I'm guessing me. Time to prepare for war. I'll focus on Galleons, to stop his invasion before it starts. By the end of the turnset, I have a line of them around the NW quarter of my continent. (I'll also build up some land forces, but not enough to stop a real invasion for a while).
Now that I have stats on everyone, let's check the info screen:
Spoiler :
Demographics. I'm not doing so great. Isolated starts are like that, since you can't pick on a weak neighbor.
Spoiler :
The info screen. Athens looks like a nice city, but it'll be a while before I'm taking on Perecles.
Spoiler :
And the EP screen. Missions cost 67% vs Rangar, 89% vs Perecles. This is part of why the Espionage Economy works so well: You wind up with an overall multiplier just for running it.
Spoiler :
Perecles will be my next target. He's the tech lead, I have an EP advantage, and he has a city almost as close as Munsa's:
Spoiler :
That shot is the turn I spread Taoism. I got lucky, going 2 for 2 with missionaries. By the way, Perecles doesn't have a state religion because he got the Shadwin Paya and is in Free Religion. He has plenty of religions in his cities.
The final set of techs from Rangar. At 400 EP per turn,Feudalism costs 2.5 turns. (Remember, 3x costs on marathon).
Spoiler :
We discover silver in SW Seafood. This turnset, I also discover copper and another silver by Delhi. Some great luck.
Spoiler :
(I think this is a flat probability per turn. That's why it never happens on normal, but routinely happens on marathon. Three of them is still really lucky, though).
My research screen:
Spoiler :
So far, I've stolen Poly, Mono, Hunting, Archery, Priesthood, Horseback Riding, Monarchy, Construction and Feudalism. Later this turnset, I'll add Guilds and Engineering. This is my first time playing a dedicated Espionage Economy (rather than just stealing a couple techs lategame), and it's amazing.
Tech screen:
Spoiler :
I'm catching up.
1055 AD: Another Great Spy. Most games I don't get any, here I've gotten two. I settle him in Commerce for 10 beakers and 24 EP per turn. (Though looking back, maybe I should have sent him on a mission vs Perecles? Like I said, I'm new to a dedicated EE).
I also notice that I can steal 91 G for 51 EP (which costs me about 30 commerce). Nice. Normally, I never steal gold because it's just not a good enough return. But here, it's totally worth it. Maybe I'll run some more theft missions on other AIs.
Spoiler :
Theft options from Perecles. Everything is about 1/2 its research cost.
Spoiler :
What to steal? Rangar is researching Engineering, and I have a better EP-ratio against him. I'm most of the way to Nationalism, just from specialist beakers. So I grab Guilds to help my workshops. (No horses on my island, sadly).
Update on the AIs' research:
Spoiler :
Gilgamesh has Astronomy, going for guns. Still preparing for war, and without tech trades, my bribing options are limited. (I ask Stalin about closing borders with Perecles, he wants 600 G for it. Pass).
Perecles is working on Constitution, and will have it a few turns before my Nationalism comes in. I'll finish my research, steal Con, and build some jails. My next self-research will probably be gunpowder. Espionage with Representation is great, since you can keep a decent SE-based research going while you spy.
The screenshot didn't come out, but I also steal Engineering from Rangar. It won't give me the option until I have over 2600 EP (the amount it lists on the espionage screen), but because of the stationary spy, it only costs 1300. Seems like a bug.
Also, at 1300 EP, that's 3 turns to steal Engineering. No way could I research it that fast.
Tech screen at the end of the turnset:
Spoiler :
And the minimap:
Spoiler :
I'm purple in the East. The offshore dots are my defense against Gilgamesh, who's the dark blue along the East side of the large continent. Perecles is the light blue that I can see, and I'm lucky he grabbed that city by Munsa for easier and cheaper spying. Stalin is the Red to the NW of that continent, and Munsa is the brown close to me.
The other continent is Rangar and Saladin. I'll get their map once I steal Paper. Rangar has 10 cities, Saladin 5. (It was 11 v 4 for a while, so they're still fighting).
I'm starting to build an army to conquer Saladin. It will probably take 1-2 turnsets, since I don't plan to whip it (there's no rush, and I care more about my economy than my military right now). I'll use Rangar as my landing site, conquer Saladin, then turn right back around and conquer Rangar.
My tech rate this turnset: 2 turns at 0%, 40 turns at 100%. Add this together with the previous turnset (getting Astronomy) and I'm running research / EP about 75% of the time, which is the same as the turnset before Astronomy. Probably a more reasonable goal than 90% of the time, but reasonable goals make for boring games. At this point, 70% is my breakeven, so I may be able to make 90% from here on out.
Goals for next turnset:
- Tech parity (with Perecles, at least).
- Steal more gold. Let's try to keep at 100%.
- Build a stack to conquer Saladin, and a few more ships to defend against Gilgamesh.
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
Unexpected Opportunities (Turns 516-548, Years 1080-1240 AD)
One of the keys of playing Spiritual is putting your entire empire on one goal. If everyone goes specialists for 20 turns then troops for 20 turns, you can run the right civics. But if half your cities do one and half the other for all 40 turns, you wind up with weaker civics choices.
(This doesn't come up for non-Spiritual, since you need to keep civics for an entire age, and you'll always need to do some of everything over that many turns).
With that in mind, here are my goals this turnset:
I'll run Bureaucracy / Pacifism or Nationhood / Pac for spying, then Bur / Slavery / Organized Religion for jails, and then Police State / Vassalage / Theocracy for the army. (Nationhood once I get muskets). Then, once the main build-up is done, I'll swap back to spy-friendly civics.
That means that I want to run a ton of specialists while Pacifism is still on, even taking my military cities and turning them to specialists for a while. Then turn all the specialists off when I swap to building, letting my tech rate go to zero as I prepare to invade Saladin.
This whole-empire specialization -- putting every city on research, or EPs, or production -- is the main reason I prefer a specialist economy over cottages.
Also, I like to start each turnset checking how useful Organized is, since I don't normally run it. Right now, it's saving me about 40 GPT (32 from civics, plus a few extra courthouses), which is 50% of my expenses. It really is a powerful trait.
Now let's see how the plan works out.
My cities, with specialists turned on.
1090 AD (turn 518): Swap my economy to gold for 5 turns, then back to Espionage.
1110 AD: Stalin declares on Gilgamesh. Guess I won't have to worry about Gilgamesh's war prep anytime soon.
Spy options on Perecles.
I go for Paper (to get maps) and Theology (for civics). Rangar won't trade maps, but if I swap to No Religion, he probably will.
1135 AD: Nationhood completes. Swapping saves me 12 GPT and gets an additional 28 EPT. I'll swap between this and Bureaucracy several times this turnset, when I want to run research or need gold.
Stalin conquers one of Gilgamesh's cities.
Normally, if an AI declares on another and starts taking cities, I worry. But here's the tech screen:
Stalin is way behind. (In the third row, it shows that he doesn't even have Compass). So I'd love it if he conquers some cities and slows Gilgamesh down. Having some players that aren't a tech threat is kind of unique to No Tech Trades, and I think it's a neat element to the game.
The other thing to notice on the tech screen is that no one has Liberalism. Perecles is the only one who can even research it. I check, and at 100% research, it would take me 11 turns. May be worth going for.
Next round of tech stealing:
He's going for Economics. So I steal Education and go for Lib. It's down to 9 turns now that I have the prereqs, though I keep Espionage at 100% until I can swap to Bureaucracy.
(I also steal Aesthetics, I think. Not enough EPs to steal Constitution this round).
1150 AD: Great Engineer born. He can bulb gunpowder, which would bring me closer to using Liberalism for Steel. Or he can settle in Commerce, giving it a needed hammer boost. Or he can hurry production.
I check wonders. Taj Mahal is still available. I'd ignored it because I don't have marble, but now it sounds like a great option. I lose 1 turn moving before realizing about Taj, and Delhi grabs it in 1160 AD. Once the Golden Age kicks in, I run even more specialists. Jails can wait.
1155 AD: Stalin takes another of Gilgamesh's cities. Even with Gilgamesh's gunpowder, he's still losing. Which is fine by me.
Also, I turn gold on for 1 turn, since I'll swap to Bureaucracy and research Liberalism next turn.
1160: With the Golden Age and Bureaucracy, Liberalism takes 7 turns. No one else is even close.
1170: I steal Constitution and lose a spy. Cities that don't have anything in particular to build start on jails, though no one has many extra hammers lying around.
1175: Gilgamesh makes peace with Stalin. At least no one is in "Prepare for War" mode.
1185: With Liberalism 1 turn away and no one else close, I delay it while I open up more expensive techs. I go 100% Espionage, and swap from Bureaucracy to Nationhood to save 11 GPT and get +25 EPT. I'll steal the last few techs, research Guns and Chemistry, and try to grab Steel with Liberalism. (If someone starts research Lib, I'll grab something in the Printing Press / Scientific Method line).
1195: Great Scientist born. Bulbs Printing Press, opening up Democracy (for Statue of Liberty) and Scientific Method (for Communism and Biology). It comes in after another 6 turns (at 0% research), then back to Guns.
Next round of spy options. I want Free Market, so I go for Banking and Literature (because it's cheap).
1205: Low on cash again. I run gold for 6 turns (5 of them under Bureaucracy, which gives an extra 33 GPT).
1210: Perecles starts preparing for war. Who will he go for?
Could be me or Gilgamesh. My navy should be fine for now, and I'll swap to military in about 20 turns anyway.
1215: Gilgamesh makes a vassal. Because 1 random city somewhere is better as its own nation than contributing a few commerce per turn to yours.
I open borders with Hammurabi. He won't affect the game much, but having a vassal will make Gilgamesh more aggressive. Maybe he'll declare on Perecles?
Would a bank be worthwhile in Commerce?
It makes 129 GPT, about 1/3 of my total. That's without any multipliers (besides Bureaucracy). So a bank would add 65 GPT, or almost 1 extra turn of something useful for every turn of gold. I'll run some math at the end of the post and see. For now, I have so many things to build there, the bank can wait.
Also, for anyone wondering is The Great Lighthouse is good:
1225: Not enough EP to steal Economics. So I finish out the other techs (Music and Drama). I have more spies on the way.
1240: Gilgamesh preps for war. (Perecles stopped prepping, not sure why).
Who's he going for?
1240: A second Great Engineer. I've been running one engineer in most cities since I got forges, but this still feels really lucky.
The new plan: Liberalism to grab Democracy, GE to pop Statue of Liberty, and a free spy in each of my 10 cities. (I'll add another city in the SE too). The other option is to settle him in Commerce, use Liberalism for Scientific Method, and start researching Communism. Leave a comment with some advice, please.
Also, with the Golden Age over, I swap to Infrastructure civics:
I whip a bunch of cities, either to finish jails, or to finish an almost-done observatory with a ton of overflow. Here's where they wind up:
My workers have roaded every tile, and built a few windmills in anticipation of Replacable Parts. Now they're hanging out, waiting for State Property for watermills.
Here's my empire:
Man, all those roads look really ugly. Firaxis should do something about that. But not something simple like "hire an artist to make pretty graphics." No, it should be some sort of gameplay change, to prevent players from building so many roads. No way that could have unintended side-effects.
And my navy, in the NW of my continent (between me and Gilgamesh):
And the large continent with Munsa, Perecles, Stalin and Gilgamesh:
That's the turnset. I lucked into Taj, and stole Paper, Banking, Theology, Constitution, Education, Aesthetics, Literature, Drama, Music. The only missing techs are Divine Right (who cares?) and Economics (need more EPs). I'll start next turnset by engineering half the Statue of Liberty, and finishing it in about 10 turns.
Of the 31 turns, I spent 11 on gold, for about 2/3 of the time on useful economics. Here's the math on the bank:
Also, I've been checking about stealing gold from Perecles. It only offers me 50 or so, probably because this city is at the outside of his empire. It's not a bad return on EPs, but not enough to be worth risking a spy and the legwork to get him back there. I'll try stealing from Munsa's capital (which is very close to me), and see if that changes the math on the bank at all.
Goals for next turnset:
One of the keys of playing Spiritual is putting your entire empire on one goal. If everyone goes specialists for 20 turns then troops for 20 turns, you can run the right civics. But if half your cities do one and half the other for all 40 turns, you wind up with weaker civics choices.
(This doesn't come up for non-Spiritual, since you need to keep civics for an entire age, and you'll always need to do some of everything over that many turns).
With that in mind, here are my goals this turnset:
- Steal Constitution.
- A jail in every city (mostly for EPs, but also for war weariness).
- Build an army (while spying the other techs, but it's ok if the spy rate slows down).
I'll run Bureaucracy / Pacifism or Nationhood / Pac for spying, then Bur / Slavery / Organized Religion for jails, and then Police State / Vassalage / Theocracy for the army. (Nationhood once I get muskets). Then, once the main build-up is done, I'll swap back to spy-friendly civics.
That means that I want to run a ton of specialists while Pacifism is still on, even taking my military cities and turning them to specialists for a while. Then turn all the specialists off when I swap to building, letting my tech rate go to zero as I prepare to invade Saladin.
This whole-empire specialization -- putting every city on research, or EPs, or production -- is the main reason I prefer a specialist economy over cottages.
Also, I like to start each turnset checking how useful Organized is, since I don't normally run it. Right now, it's saving me about 40 GPT (32 from civics, plus a few extra courthouses), which is 50% of my expenses. It really is a powerful trait.
Spoiler :
Now let's see how the plan works out.
My cities, with specialists turned on.
Spoiler :
1090 AD (turn 518): Swap my economy to gold for 5 turns, then back to Espionage.
1110 AD: Stalin declares on Gilgamesh. Guess I won't have to worry about Gilgamesh's war prep anytime soon.
Spoiler :
Spy options on Perecles.
Spoiler :
I go for Paper (to get maps) and Theology (for civics). Rangar won't trade maps, but if I swap to No Religion, he probably will.
1135 AD: Nationhood completes. Swapping saves me 12 GPT and gets an additional 28 EPT. I'll swap between this and Bureaucracy several times this turnset, when I want to run research or need gold.
Spoiler :
Stalin conquers one of Gilgamesh's cities.
Spoiler :
Normally, if an AI declares on another and starts taking cities, I worry. But here's the tech screen:
Spoiler :
Stalin is way behind. (In the third row, it shows that he doesn't even have Compass). So I'd love it if he conquers some cities and slows Gilgamesh down. Having some players that aren't a tech threat is kind of unique to No Tech Trades, and I think it's a neat element to the game.
The other thing to notice on the tech screen is that no one has Liberalism. Perecles is the only one who can even research it. I check, and at 100% research, it would take me 11 turns. May be worth going for.
Next round of tech stealing:
Spoiler :
He's going for Economics. So I steal Education and go for Lib. It's down to 9 turns now that I have the prereqs, though I keep Espionage at 100% until I can swap to Bureaucracy.
(I also steal Aesthetics, I think. Not enough EPs to steal Constitution this round).
1150 AD: Great Engineer born. He can bulb gunpowder, which would bring me closer to using Liberalism for Steel. Or he can settle in Commerce, giving it a needed hammer boost. Or he can hurry production.
I check wonders. Taj Mahal is still available. I'd ignored it because I don't have marble, but now it sounds like a great option. I lose 1 turn moving before realizing about Taj, and Delhi grabs it in 1160 AD. Once the Golden Age kicks in, I run even more specialists. Jails can wait.
1155 AD: Stalin takes another of Gilgamesh's cities. Even with Gilgamesh's gunpowder, he's still losing. Which is fine by me.
Spoiler :
Also, I turn gold on for 1 turn, since I'll swap to Bureaucracy and research Liberalism next turn.
1160: With the Golden Age and Bureaucracy, Liberalism takes 7 turns. No one else is even close.
Spoiler :
1170: I steal Constitution and lose a spy. Cities that don't have anything in particular to build start on jails, though no one has many extra hammers lying around.
1175: Gilgamesh makes peace with Stalin. At least no one is in "Prepare for War" mode.
1185: With Liberalism 1 turn away and no one else close, I delay it while I open up more expensive techs. I go 100% Espionage, and swap from Bureaucracy to Nationhood to save 11 GPT and get +25 EPT. I'll steal the last few techs, research Guns and Chemistry, and try to grab Steel with Liberalism. (If someone starts research Lib, I'll grab something in the Printing Press / Scientific Method line).
1195: Great Scientist born. Bulbs Printing Press, opening up Democracy (for Statue of Liberty) and Scientific Method (for Communism and Biology). It comes in after another 6 turns (at 0% research), then back to Guns.
Next round of spy options. I want Free Market, so I go for Banking and Literature (because it's cheap).
Spoiler :
1205: Low on cash again. I run gold for 6 turns (5 of them under Bureaucracy, which gives an extra 33 GPT).
1210: Perecles starts preparing for war. Who will he go for?
Spoiler :
Could be me or Gilgamesh. My navy should be fine for now, and I'll swap to military in about 20 turns anyway.
1215: Gilgamesh makes a vassal. Because 1 random city somewhere is better as its own nation than contributing a few commerce per turn to yours.
Spoiler :
I open borders with Hammurabi. He won't affect the game much, but having a vassal will make Gilgamesh more aggressive. Maybe he'll declare on Perecles?
Would a bank be worthwhile in Commerce?
Spoiler :
It makes 129 GPT, about 1/3 of my total. That's without any multipliers (besides Bureaucracy). So a bank would add 65 GPT, or almost 1 extra turn of something useful for every turn of gold. I'll run some math at the end of the post and see. For now, I have so many things to build there, the bank can wait.
Also, for anyone wondering is The Great Lighthouse is good:
Spoiler :
1225: Not enough EP to steal Economics. So I finish out the other techs (Music and Drama). I have more spies on the way.
Spoiler :
1240: Gilgamesh preps for war. (Perecles stopped prepping, not sure why).
Who's he going for?
Spoiler :
1240: A second Great Engineer. I've been running one engineer in most cities since I got forges, but this still feels really lucky.
Spoiler :
The new plan: Liberalism to grab Democracy, GE to pop Statue of Liberty, and a free spy in each of my 10 cities. (I'll add another city in the SE too). The other option is to settle him in Commerce, use Liberalism for Scientific Method, and start researching Communism. Leave a comment with some advice, please.
Also, with the Golden Age over, I swap to Infrastructure civics:
Spoiler :
I whip a bunch of cities, either to finish jails, or to finish an almost-done observatory with a ton of overflow. Here's where they wind up:
Spoiler :
My workers have roaded every tile, and built a few windmills in anticipation of Replacable Parts. Now they're hanging out, waiting for State Property for watermills.
Here's my empire:
Spoiler :
Man, all those roads look really ugly. Firaxis should do something about that. But not something simple like "hire an artist to make pretty graphics." No, it should be some sort of gameplay change, to prevent players from building so many roads. No way that could have unintended side-effects.
And my navy, in the NW of my continent (between me and Gilgamesh):
Spoiler :
And the large continent with Munsa, Perecles, Stalin and Gilgamesh:
Spoiler :
That's the turnset. I lucked into Taj, and stole Paper, Banking, Theology, Constitution, Education, Aesthetics, Literature, Drama, Music. The only missing techs are Divine Right (who cares?) and Economics (need more EPs). I'll start next turnset by engineering half the Statue of Liberty, and finishing it in about 10 turns.
Of the 31 turns, I spent 11 on gold, for about 2/3 of the time on useful economics. Here's the math on the bank:
Spoiler :
Also, I've been checking about stealing gold from Perecles. It only offers me 50 or so, probably because this city is at the outside of his empire. It's not a bad return on EPs, but not enough to be worth risking a spy and the legwork to get him back there. I'll try stealing from Munsa's capital (which is very close to me), and see if that changes the math on the bank at all.
Goals for next turnset:
- Finish the building phase: Statue of Liberty and a bunch of jails.
- Spread Taoism to Munsa and Gilgamesh. Steal gold, plus Chemistry from Gilgamesh.
- Swap to war civics (Police State / Vassalage / Theocracy) and prepare to conquer Saladin.
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
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- 656
Liberal Communism (Turns 548-560, Years 1240-1300 AD)
In the time between turnsets, I made a plan:
I want to whip a ton of infrastructure. Jails and Intelligence Agencies everywhere (when I get them), 6 Universities, a few other buildings, and maybe some troops.
I'd been planning on doing that now, and figuring out whether to use the Great Engineer on the Statue of Liberty, or settle him. But neither is correct.
Here's the new plan: Self-tech Scientific Method. Complete Liberalism to grab Communism (and a free Great Spy). Use the Great Engineer for the Kremlin, then swap civics, whip out the infrastructure, then use State Property to keep maintenance down as I conquer the second continent.
The only problem: The last turn of the previous turnset, I'd swapped to Slavery and started whipping. Which slows down my tech rate a lot. What to do?
I decided to load the autosave and redo the final turn. I know, that makes me Lame with a capital L. Mea culpa. I'm an adult writing about a video games. I think that ship has sailed.
So, I reload 1240 AD, get my cities out of starvation (the Golden Age just ended) and turn research on. 12 turns to Scientific Method.
Next turn, Munsa starts on Liberalism.
No surprise, since he just finished Philosophy, but he'll be there in 12. I'll need 1 turn after SM to get Lib, so my ETA is 12 also. I put cities back into (mild) starvation to bring it down to 10 turns.
Two turns later, Munsa somehow shaves 2 turns off his Lib. Now he'll get it the turn I get SM. No good.
(My guess is he went to Free Market).
I starve my cities heavily, and swap all specialists to scientists. Some cities will shrink in 9-10 turns. But I'll get SM in 7, then Lib the next turn -- the same turn as Munsa. But I've almost completed it, so hopefully I'll have more overflow than him.
A couple turns later, I notice Munsa is running Free Market.
I'd already sent some spies, preparing to steal his gold. They haven't had any turns to get better espionage prices, but I have just enough to swap him back to Decentralization. The race is over in 5 turns either way, so I can't wait. It loses me vision of his research, but hopefully it slows him down a turn.
(It takes him 5 turns to swap back to FM).
Rangar calls, demanding 650 G.
Yeah, that's really gonna happen in this kind of tech race. Silly Rangar, don't you know you need a navy on this map? Do you even have Optics?
1290: Scientific Method. I have one source of oil, near Delhi. Also, Liberalism is about 100 beakers away, meaning I'll overflow by 900. Should be enough even if Munsa gets Lib this turn too.
I win! Communism, the free Great Spy, and a 1-turn Kremlin in Delhi (by using the Great Engineer, and putting everyone on production, even a 1-hammer citizen).
Who to spy on?
Perecles only has Econ, and I don't really care about that now (I'll be in State Property for a while). But Gilgamesh almost has Chemistry. So I'll go for him. I've heard good things about using a Great Spy for infiltration, so I'll try it.
Also: Wow, that's a lot of gold Munsa has. I put my normal spy points toward him. When I swap to Organized Religion, I'll spread Taoism to Munsa and Gilgamesh for better rates.
Civics: Universal Sufferage (for the 2 towns in Commerce) / Bureaucracy / Slavery / State Property / Organized Religion.
I whip every damn city:
Two more turns, and I'll do it again. I want jails, intelligence agencies, and 6 universities. Probably 2-3 whips per city, maybe 4 in some. Kremlin will definitely pay off.
So, short turnset, getting Communism and starting the whips. But a ton of micro to make it happen. Those 12 turns took a half-hour to play.
Goals for next turnset:
In the time between turnsets, I made a plan:
I want to whip a ton of infrastructure. Jails and Intelligence Agencies everywhere (when I get them), 6 Universities, a few other buildings, and maybe some troops.
I'd been planning on doing that now, and figuring out whether to use the Great Engineer on the Statue of Liberty, or settle him. But neither is correct.
Here's the new plan: Self-tech Scientific Method. Complete Liberalism to grab Communism (and a free Great Spy). Use the Great Engineer for the Kremlin, then swap civics, whip out the infrastructure, then use State Property to keep maintenance down as I conquer the second continent.
The only problem: The last turn of the previous turnset, I'd swapped to Slavery and started whipping. Which slows down my tech rate a lot. What to do?
I decided to load the autosave and redo the final turn. I know, that makes me Lame with a capital L. Mea culpa. I'm an adult writing about a video games. I think that ship has sailed.
So, I reload 1240 AD, get my cities out of starvation (the Golden Age just ended) and turn research on. 12 turns to Scientific Method.
Next turn, Munsa starts on Liberalism.
Spoiler :
No surprise, since he just finished Philosophy, but he'll be there in 12. I'll need 1 turn after SM to get Lib, so my ETA is 12 also. I put cities back into (mild) starvation to bring it down to 10 turns.
Spoiler :
Two turns later, Munsa somehow shaves 2 turns off his Lib. Now he'll get it the turn I get SM. No good.
Spoiler :
(My guess is he went to Free Market).
I starve my cities heavily, and swap all specialists to scientists. Some cities will shrink in 9-10 turns. But I'll get SM in 7, then Lib the next turn -- the same turn as Munsa. But I've almost completed it, so hopefully I'll have more overflow than him.
A couple turns later, I notice Munsa is running Free Market.
Spoiler :
I'd already sent some spies, preparing to steal his gold. They haven't had any turns to get better espionage prices, but I have just enough to swap him back to Decentralization. The race is over in 5 turns either way, so I can't wait. It loses me vision of his research, but hopefully it slows him down a turn.
(It takes him 5 turns to swap back to FM).
Rangar calls, demanding 650 G.
Spoiler :
Yeah, that's really gonna happen in this kind of tech race. Silly Rangar, don't you know you need a navy on this map? Do you even have Optics?
1290: Scientific Method. I have one source of oil, near Delhi. Also, Liberalism is about 100 beakers away, meaning I'll overflow by 900. Should be enough even if Munsa gets Lib this turn too.
Spoiler :
I win! Communism, the free Great Spy, and a 1-turn Kremlin in Delhi (by using the Great Engineer, and putting everyone on production, even a 1-hammer citizen).
Spoiler :
Who to spy on?
Spoiler :
Perecles only has Econ, and I don't really care about that now (I'll be in State Property for a while). But Gilgamesh almost has Chemistry. So I'll go for him. I've heard good things about using a Great Spy for infiltration, so I'll try it.
Also: Wow, that's a lot of gold Munsa has. I put my normal spy points toward him. When I swap to Organized Religion, I'll spread Taoism to Munsa and Gilgamesh for better rates.
Civics: Universal Sufferage (for the 2 towns in Commerce) / Bureaucracy / Slavery / State Property / Organized Religion.
Spoiler :
I whip every damn city:
Spoiler :
Two more turns, and I'll do it again. I want jails, intelligence agencies, and 6 universities. Probably 2-3 whips per city, maybe 4 in some. Kremlin will definitely pay off.
So, short turnset, getting Communism and starting the whips. But a ton of micro to make it happen. Those 12 turns took a half-hour to play.
Goals for next turnset:
- Get cities up-to-date on infrastructure.
- Rebuild population. (Not sure which civics to run here. Free Market? May be worth stealing Econ after all).
- Steal gold from Munsa to keep at 100% espionage.
- Build up to conquer Saladin. (Probably the turnset after next).
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
Did Someone Forget My Cruel Oppression? (Turns 561-566, Years 1305-1330 AD)
Yes, a 5-turn turnset. 25 years, which is like 1 turn on quick. But with the ridiculous amount of whipping, it took about 40 minutes to play.
1305
You can see what I whipped last turn:
Also, notice the 780 EP/turn? That's higher than it's been in a long time, even as I'm whipping away spies. Trade routes + multipliers = a ton of commerce.
And my builds for next turn:
1310
2 citizens to whip a barely-started Intelligence Agency, with good overflow:
That seems really low, even for a Bureaucratic capital. What's up?
Warning: Spoiler contains math.
If you skipped the math, here's the punchline:
And I keep noticing ridiculously cheap whips, like 3 pop for a barely-started University:
Kremlin rocks.
Cities at the end of 1310:
1315
Start of the turn, more buildings finish:
Also, I get vision on techs again. Perecles is going for Democracy, which I'll try to steal for Statue of Liberty.
SW Seafood is out of the planned buildings. What next? I could go military (and I do overflow into a Galleon toward the end of this turnset), but SW Seafood has a lot of commerce, so I grab walls to make castle. It will go obsolete with Economics, but I'm running State Property instead of Free Market, so I can just skip Econ for now.
End of 1315:
1320
Delhi is done (though I'll probably make walls and castle later). With Gilgamesh preparing for war, I make another couple Galleons.
End of the turn screenshot:
MidWest Pigs needs a turn in University before whipping. So Commerce starts a counthouse to delay one turn, so it can put all the overflows into Oxford.
1325
Not much happens in my cities this turn. Ones that are done with jail, intelligence agency and university put the overflow into walls. SW Seafood whips Castle. (Only 1 pop!)
John Honeyman, my Great Spy, arrives by Galleon to infiltrate Gilgamesh's city. Here's the before and after on the spy screen:
8,000 EPs. Wow! Let's see how that stacks up to settling:
Turns out it would be better to settle him. And I was all excited about the 8k EP. Man, math is depressing.
I also spread Taoism to Munsa's capital, then steal his gold: Over 1000 G for about 625 EP. (Screencap didn't come out). That's an amazing deal, especially since I have a 2x multiplier for EPs everywhere, plus a free 28 EP/turn from most cities. Plus, making EPs reduces spy costs everywhere, while making gold does...nothing. I've been running at 100% EP (or research) last turnset and this one, and with this 1k G, I can keep it up for a long time.
Also, I check the trades screen a couple turns later. Munsa still has around 1500 G. So I think the game just gives me gold, but doesn't subtract it from him. Which is kind of a shame, since you can't slow a guy down, but it also means I can keep stealing from him, which is awesome.
(If anyone verifies this, it could lead to some really broken MP team strategies).
Earlier, I'd wondered why I couldn't steal much gold from Perecles. The mechanics guide explains why:
So, for gold theft targets, you want someone rich with few cities, and you want to go for their largest one. So Munsa (with 5 cities) is a much better target than Perecles (with 11, and with only a smaller one near me).
1330
Screencap with the final items I finished:
My EPs have grown to 980/turn, even as I've whipped my cities into the ground. (That's up from 780/turn at the start, and around 600/turn before whipping anything). Once I get 3-5 spies per city, it will really take off.
Also, notice the 1100 G. That makes me so happy.
I still love failgold, though. So the biggest overflow goes into Oxford.
Commerce completes a courthouse (pre-whipped, so the overflow will just go right through it into the next build), and will start on Ox next turn.
One final whip in NE Pig, and every city has its infrastructure.
Also, all my cities are tiny now. But that's OK. They've all got good food bonuses, so they'll regrow quickly.
Here's the tech screen:
Notice that Munsa is still rich. I'll get some more spies over there and try to steal again.
Also, I'm finding Munsa a much weaker techer this game. I think it's the No Tech Trades setting. Normally, he'll trade with everyone, even enemies, basically like a human (rather than a role-playing AI). I think that's the real source of his tech strength, more than Financial cottages.
That's the end of the turnset. But now that the ridiculous amount of micro is over, I should be able to play more turns in less time and make some progress in conquering Saladin.
Goals for next turnset:
Also, thanks to Dr. Null for the note, and everyone else who's reading.
Yes, a 5-turn turnset. 25 years, which is like 1 turn on quick. But with the ridiculous amount of whipping, it took about 40 minutes to play.
1305
You can see what I whipped last turn:
Spoiler :
Also, notice the 780 EP/turn? That's higher than it's been in a long time, even as I'm whipping away spies. Trade routes + multipliers = a ton of commerce.
And my builds for next turn:
Spoiler :
1310
2 citizens to whip a barely-started Intelligence Agency, with good overflow:
Spoiler :
That seems really low, even for a Bureaucratic capital. What's up?
Warning: Spoiler contains math.
Spoiler :
If you skipped the math, here's the punchline:
Spoiler :
And I keep noticing ridiculously cheap whips, like 3 pop for a barely-started University:
Spoiler :
Kremlin rocks.
Cities at the end of 1310:
Spoiler :
1315
Start of the turn, more buildings finish:
Spoiler :
Also, I get vision on techs again. Perecles is going for Democracy, which I'll try to steal for Statue of Liberty.
SW Seafood is out of the planned buildings. What next? I could go military (and I do overflow into a Galleon toward the end of this turnset), but SW Seafood has a lot of commerce, so I grab walls to make castle. It will go obsolete with Economics, but I'm running State Property instead of Free Market, so I can just skip Econ for now.
End of 1315:
Spoiler :
1320
Delhi is done (though I'll probably make walls and castle later). With Gilgamesh preparing for war, I make another couple Galleons.
Spoiler :
End of the turn screenshot:
Spoiler :
MidWest Pigs needs a turn in University before whipping. So Commerce starts a counthouse to delay one turn, so it can put all the overflows into Oxford.
1325
Not much happens in my cities this turn. Ones that are done with jail, intelligence agency and university put the overflow into walls. SW Seafood whips Castle. (Only 1 pop!)
Spoiler :
John Honeyman, my Great Spy, arrives by Galleon to infiltrate Gilgamesh's city. Here's the before and after on the spy screen:
Spoiler :
8,000 EPs. Wow! Let's see how that stacks up to settling:
Spoiler :
Turns out it would be better to settle him. And I was all excited about the 8k EP. Man, math is depressing.
I also spread Taoism to Munsa's capital, then steal his gold: Over 1000 G for about 625 EP. (Screencap didn't come out). That's an amazing deal, especially since I have a 2x multiplier for EPs everywhere, plus a free 28 EP/turn from most cities. Plus, making EPs reduces spy costs everywhere, while making gold does...nothing. I've been running at 100% EP (or research) last turnset and this one, and with this 1k G, I can keep it up for a long time.
Also, I check the trades screen a couple turns later. Munsa still has around 1500 G. So I think the game just gives me gold, but doesn't subtract it from him. Which is kind of a shame, since you can't slow a guy down, but it also means I can keep stealing from him, which is awesome.
(If anyone verifies this, it could lead to some really broken MP team strategies).
Earlier, I'd wondered why I couldn't steal much gold from Perecles. The mechanics guide explains why:
So, for gold theft targets, you want someone rich with few cities, and you want to go for their largest one. So Munsa (with 5 cities) is a much better target than Perecles (with 11, and with only a smaller one near me).
1330
Screencap with the final items I finished:
Spoiler :
My EPs have grown to 980/turn, even as I've whipped my cities into the ground. (That's up from 780/turn at the start, and around 600/turn before whipping anything). Once I get 3-5 spies per city, it will really take off.
Also, notice the 1100 G. That makes me so happy.
I still love failgold, though. So the biggest overflow goes into Oxford.
Spoiler :
Commerce completes a courthouse (pre-whipped, so the overflow will just go right through it into the next build), and will start on Ox next turn.
One final whip in NE Pig, and every city has its infrastructure.
Spoiler :
Also, all my cities are tiny now. But that's OK. They've all got good food bonuses, so they'll regrow quickly.
Here's the tech screen:
Spoiler :
Notice that Munsa is still rich. I'll get some more spies over there and try to steal again.
Also, I'm finding Munsa a much weaker techer this game. I think it's the No Tech Trades setting. Normally, he'll trade with everyone, even enemies, basically like a human (rather than a role-playing AI). I think that's the real source of his tech strength, more than Financial cottages.
That's the end of the turnset. But now that the ridiculous amount of micro is over, I should be able to play more turns in less time and make some progress in conquering Saladin.
Goals for next turnset:
- Regrow cities.
- Finish Gunpowder, steal Chemistry and Democracy, try for Statue of Liberty.
- Keep robbing Munsa (and keep at 100% research).
- (Finally) Build a land army to conquer Saladin.
Also, thanks to Dr. Null for the note, and everyone else who's reading.
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
Lions and Tigers and Frigates, Oh My (Turns 566-570, Years 1330-1350 AD)
I start the turnset grabbing Democracy for 4700 EP:
I was wondering which civics to run during the rebuilding phase, and I decide to keep the production ones (Universal Suffrage, Bureaucracy, Organized Religion), and swap to Emancipation. Sure, it only helps Commerce, but I'm done with whipping, can't even use my available specialist slots, and don't desperately need worker turns. So let's speed up those towns.
And what's this?
Looks like Gilgamesh is coming for me. And he brought a stack of Frigates, which could be a problem. I gather my navy to sink his before he has a chance to land.
Also, my navy is a bit light, so I buy 3 galleons, spending most of the 1k I got from Munsa.
He's getting closer...
I count the tiles. He can't land anywhere this turn, which lets me bring all my ships together.
No possibilities of bribing a war. And without techs to trade, I don't know if I could do it, even if anyone was willing to.
Gilgamesh is one turn from landing. Time to attack.
I get nothing. Not one ship. I'd thought that 2 galleons would take a frigate, but it takes 3-4, it seems.
Even if I'd sunk his frigates, I still probably couldn't have stopped the whole invasion, but taking a few galleons would have given me a chance. I have 8 modern land units, and in a turn or two I could have swapped back to slavery to clean up my continent. But 15 modern units, after whipping all that infrastructure? Not gonna happen. I'll call this a loss.
On the upside, this is the best I've ever done with an isolated start. Usually, by the time I meet anyone, I'm hopelessly behind in tech. That's probably more due to No Tech Trades than any skill on my part, but it's still nice.
Next: A post-mortem on no tech trades, espionage and gold-less economies.
I start the turnset grabbing Democracy for 4700 EP:
Spoiler :
I was wondering which civics to run during the rebuilding phase, and I decide to keep the production ones (Universal Suffrage, Bureaucracy, Organized Religion), and swap to Emancipation. Sure, it only helps Commerce, but I'm done with whipping, can't even use my available specialist slots, and don't desperately need worker turns. So let's speed up those towns.
And what's this?
Spoiler :
Looks like Gilgamesh is coming for me. And he brought a stack of Frigates, which could be a problem. I gather my navy to sink his before he has a chance to land.
Also, my navy is a bit light, so I buy 3 galleons, spending most of the 1k I got from Munsa.
He's getting closer...
Spoiler :
I count the tiles. He can't land anywhere this turn, which lets me bring all my ships together.
No possibilities of bribing a war. And without techs to trade, I don't know if I could do it, even if anyone was willing to.
Spoiler :
Gilgamesh is one turn from landing. Time to attack.
Spoiler :
I get nothing. Not one ship. I'd thought that 2 galleons would take a frigate, but it takes 3-4, it seems.
Spoiler :
Even if I'd sunk his frigates, I still probably couldn't have stopped the whole invasion, but taking a few galleons would have given me a chance. I have 8 modern land units, and in a turn or two I could have swapped back to slavery to clean up my continent. But 15 modern units, after whipping all that infrastructure? Not gonna happen. I'll call this a loss.
On the upside, this is the best I've ever done with an isolated start. Usually, by the time I meet anyone, I'm hopelessly behind in tech. That's probably more due to No Tech Trades than any skill on my part, but it's still nice.
Next: A post-mortem on no tech trades, espionage and gold-less economies.
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
Post-Mortem
A lot of new aspects of Civ 4 this game. Which is awesome, considering I've been playing it for about two years now.
Isolated start, no tech trades, and the espionage economy were all new. I've done some naval warfare, but not much (and it shows). I learned a ton this game. Here are a few notes.
No Tech Trades
TMIT has been advocating this setting, so I gave it a try. It's great. Here are the tradeoffs:
You get much less control over AIs. It's much harder to bribe wars when you have to do it with 5k of gold instead of 5k of beakers. Up to you if this is a pro or a con, but I enjoyed having less ability to manipulate the AIs, even if it did lead to a loss.
Once an AI falls behind, they stay behind. If someone doesn't have Optics, you don't have to worry about Astronomy for a while. This is nice, since it lets you plan alliances better.
If you fall behind, you can catch up with espionage. It's harder than trading, but really, trading one tech to 5 guys for 3x its beaker value feels, well, imbalanced. At least after playing with NTT on.
You know that huge acceleration once you get optics, where everyone trades with everyone and techs go ridiculously fast? It doesn't happen, which I like. It gives you enough time to use each unit, and punish someone who falls behind. I think it's a positive, even if it did work against me this game.
Also, winning no longer requires being on the biggest continent. Having allies is still important for trade routes and resources, but an isolated start is totally playable.
On the whole, I like NTT, and plan to make it a default setting for future games.
Espionage Economy
Oh my god, espionage is good. You can steal techs for 1/3 of the normal cost, and EPs get better multipliers than beakers. Plus it gets you city vision and protects you from their spies. And you don't have to choose research or spying, since Representation lets you do both.
Stealing gold is awesome, too (as long as you know the formula and pick the right target). If Gilgamesh hadn't gone for me at the end, I could have run 100% research indefinitely by robbing Munsa every 15 turns or so.
Definitely playing Espionage Economy again. Will probably pick traits around it, and shoot for the Great Wall a lot.
No Gold Buildings
I like skipping the gold multiplier buildings. In the second-to-last turnset, you saw how far behind I'd gotten on infrastructure. If I'd also put up a market, grocer and bank, it would have been hopeless. Between gold, research and spying, you can reasonably do two of the three, but if you try to do all three, it's not really a commerce city.
This is definitely something I'll do again. In total, I probably put about 75% of my turns on research / espionage, and only 25% on gold. Next time, with earlier espionage to steal gold, I should do better. (Especially if I also get marble for failgold).
Wonders
The Great Lighthouse is absolutely amazing. Pyramids are nice, especially this game because of the lack of happiness resources. But it was GLH that really pushed my economy.
What I Did Wrong
I got too caught up in the economy, and didn't focus on military enough. In particular, I didn't recognize the threat posed by Chemistry (for frigates). I just don't play a lot of isolated starts or archipelago games, so it's not instinctive. Won't make that mistake again.
I should have switched espionage to Gilgamesh earlier, grabbed Gunpowder and Chemistry and built my own frigates. If your plan is to own the seas, you have to own them. Not just put forth a showing. Especially on Aggressive AI.
Thoughts?
See anything else you'd have done differently? Let me know.
A lot of new aspects of Civ 4 this game. Which is awesome, considering I've been playing it for about two years now.
Isolated start, no tech trades, and the espionage economy were all new. I've done some naval warfare, but not much (and it shows). I learned a ton this game. Here are a few notes.
No Tech Trades
TMIT has been advocating this setting, so I gave it a try. It's great. Here are the tradeoffs:
You get much less control over AIs. It's much harder to bribe wars when you have to do it with 5k of gold instead of 5k of beakers. Up to you if this is a pro or a con, but I enjoyed having less ability to manipulate the AIs, even if it did lead to a loss.
Once an AI falls behind, they stay behind. If someone doesn't have Optics, you don't have to worry about Astronomy for a while. This is nice, since it lets you plan alliances better.
If you fall behind, you can catch up with espionage. It's harder than trading, but really, trading one tech to 5 guys for 3x its beaker value feels, well, imbalanced. At least after playing with NTT on.
You know that huge acceleration once you get optics, where everyone trades with everyone and techs go ridiculously fast? It doesn't happen, which I like. It gives you enough time to use each unit, and punish someone who falls behind. I think it's a positive, even if it did work against me this game.
Also, winning no longer requires being on the biggest continent. Having allies is still important for trade routes and resources, but an isolated start is totally playable.
On the whole, I like NTT, and plan to make it a default setting for future games.
Espionage Economy
Oh my god, espionage is good. You can steal techs for 1/3 of the normal cost, and EPs get better multipliers than beakers. Plus it gets you city vision and protects you from their spies. And you don't have to choose research or spying, since Representation lets you do both.
Stealing gold is awesome, too (as long as you know the formula and pick the right target). If Gilgamesh hadn't gone for me at the end, I could have run 100% research indefinitely by robbing Munsa every 15 turns or so.
Definitely playing Espionage Economy again. Will probably pick traits around it, and shoot for the Great Wall a lot.
No Gold Buildings
I like skipping the gold multiplier buildings. In the second-to-last turnset, you saw how far behind I'd gotten on infrastructure. If I'd also put up a market, grocer and bank, it would have been hopeless. Between gold, research and spying, you can reasonably do two of the three, but if you try to do all three, it's not really a commerce city.
This is definitely something I'll do again. In total, I probably put about 75% of my turns on research / espionage, and only 25% on gold. Next time, with earlier espionage to steal gold, I should do better. (Especially if I also get marble for failgold).
Wonders
The Great Lighthouse is absolutely amazing. Pyramids are nice, especially this game because of the lack of happiness resources. But it was GLH that really pushed my economy.
What I Did Wrong
I got too caught up in the economy, and didn't focus on military enough. In particular, I didn't recognize the threat posed by Chemistry (for frigates). I just don't play a lot of isolated starts or archipelago games, so it's not instinctive. Won't make that mistake again.
I should have switched espionage to Gilgamesh earlier, grabbed Gunpowder and Chemistry and built my own frigates. If your plan is to own the seas, you have to own them. Not just put forth a showing. Especially on Aggressive AI.
Thoughts?
See anything else you'd have done differently? Let me know.
CreeDakota
King
Diplo seemed like the part of your game that NTT messed up the most and a large part of the loss. With no techtrades you cant give in to tech demands or get the +4 tech trade diplo bonus. If you make this your default I would keep that in mind and pay more attention to other diplo possiblities like gifting cites, shared religion, and favored civs.
but a great writeup. Thanks for sharing
but a great writeup. Thanks for sharing
plastiqe
Grinch
Just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading this, look forward to the next one.
OneLeggedRhino
King
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2011
- Messages
- 656
His landing party:
Spoiler :
With another round of whips, I could repel that stack. But without a navy, I can't stop a second or third landing:
Spoiler :
But mostly, I'm worn out on this map. An isolated game was interesting, but I'm looking forward to a map with neighbors to trade with and conquer from the start.
Thanks for the kind notes everyone, and thanks for reading.
-Rhino
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