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Asparusthesaiyan's top ten science civs in Gathering Storm (Post Patch)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by AsparustheSaiyan, Apr 17, 2019.

  1. AsparustheSaiyan

    AsparustheSaiyan Chieftain

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    Hello everyone! So I got inspired by u/seacow1g over on reddit and his posts back in rise and fall where he made top ten lists for each of the victory types. So I thought I would have a go myself but there is one thing you should all know...

    I have only played the game to king difficulty, now this may be an issue for some and maybe not for others but I thought it was only fair to let you all know before we continue. I have watched deity plays on YouTube so I do believe have a good idea of what is good and what isn't. Also, these are my opinions. So everything below is purely subjective.

    OhOand one more thing before I forget. These are just brief overviews, if you feel I missed something then feel free to let me know!

    With that being said, let's begin!

    1) Korea

    Ok, I don't think anyone is thinking of arguing with me on this one... They have a 50% off campus with AT LEAST +4 adjacency.

    A hills start bias so production is never an issue.

    Governor's give extra science. 3% in fact. This doesn't sound like a whole lot but when your science keeps increasing this racks up really fast!

    farms give extra food when adjacent to Seowon's and mines give extra science next to Seowon's. Meaning your production actually gives you science and your cities can grow taller which means... Yep, you guessed it, more science.

    Essentially, everything Korea does is aimed at getting more science than anyone else and because of that they are easily the best science in the game.

    2) Australia

    Much like Korea, Australia can get pretty damn good adjacency on their Campus'. They just do it in a different way.

    They get extra adjacency for their Campus' when they are placed on tiles with breathtaking appeal. Because of this, it is not uncommon to see Australian Campus' at +6 maybe even +7 adjacency.

    After liberating a city or being DOW'd you get 100% for 10 turns. If you get this, it is rediculous what you can do with it. Especially around when space ship projects are around because I guarantee you, someone, either an AI city state or city can be liberated by then. Or you will be close to winning so they gang up on you anyways. And with emergencies in the game now getting DOW'd isn't that difficult now.

    Extra housing from cities on coastal tiles and the outback station means Australian cities get taller which means once again, even more science.

    These bonus' to me are just too substantial to ignore and place Australia at number 2 for me.

    3) Germany.

    So what else do you need for a great science victory? Production. And Germany laughs at every other civs measley production.

    Germany doesn't get any straight up bonus' to science. However with the use of Hansa's and trade routes when paired with commercial hubs, Germany can effectively make productive cities in places other civs can't. More cities are then able to build spaceports and complete space projects.

    An extra district slot for every city ensures Germany will get cities up and running a lot faster, especially with Hanza's. Highly underrated in my opinion and makes Germany a diversity powerhouse.

    Bonus' against city states mean that Germany can potentially get cities faster. More cities = more population = more science.

    Germany's production bonus' are simply too monumental to ignore. There have been several posts on the subreddit showing this and due to how quickly and efficiently they can build everything they need for a science win they take the number 3 slot.

    4) Sumeria

    Right then, Sumeria is one of those civs that are famous for their more militaristic approach to winning games, and for science that is no different.

    War carts are the best UU in the game. Get a few of these out, conquer a lot of your neighbours cities and city states, then sit back and let your massive number of cities do the rest of the work for you once War Carts become obsolete. War Carts also get tribal villages from clearing barb camps so you have a good chance at getting some early Eurekas there.

    Ziggurats provide a very early source of science and can literally be built anywhere. Which means in combination with war carts and taking over your earliest neighbours. You can get a very early head start on science before you even get Campus'.

    It is for these reasons that Sumeria take the number 4 spot.

    5) Arabia

    Arabia is a bit of an oddball in civ 6. The thing is, normally certain victory conditions can help each other. Science helps domination and vice versa. Faith helps culture etc etc. With Arabia, it's science and faith. A strange combination, but it surprisingly works.

    A good source of faith AND science for Arabia comes from their Madrasa's which is their replacement for the university, provides +5 science instead of +4 and is unlocked earlier at Theology in the civics tree. Meaning Arabia can get a stronger science advantage quicker than other civs and start generating more great scientists too.

    Completing a unique holy site building from your religion provides an extra 10% science in the city it was built which coupled with the science from Madrasa's can start adding up.

    They also get +1 science from each foreign city converted to their religion. This doesn't seem like much put if you plan on using your religion to influence your science output you can get a decent amount of science from this and at the end of the day, extra science, no matter how small, never stops being important.

    One thing worth mentioning is that they are guaranteed the last religion. Allowing you a little freedom to pursue generating science first. On the other hand, a strong faith generation means you can purchase great scientists so it may be worth more to get a religion sooner rather than later.

    Overall Arabia gets some great bonus' to science. If their UU wasn't hit so hard in Gathering storm I feel they would have been better but it's hard to deny that Arabia is easily a top 5 science civ.

    6) Scotland

    Scotland was a civ I never really thought much off until I tried them. Essentially what they do is turn your civs happiness into science and production generation. Both of which are important for science victories.

    If you can get your cities happy they get +1 great scientist point in Campus' and +1 great engineer point in industrial zones. If your cities are ecstatic, they go to +2. This pretty much means Scotland has a great chance of getting great scientists throughout the course of the game. (Ha! Golf puns.)

    +5% science in happy cities and +10% in ecstatic cities is a welcome boost. It reminds me of Arabia's boost with the unique religious holy building only with Scotland it's based on ammenities and happiness which are a little more easy to manipulate by outside sources. (War, trading luxuries etc etc)

    +100% production for 10 turns after declaring a war of liberation can be tricky since it's reliant on events happening outside of your control. However, if you can activate it, then just like Australia's similar ability that production boost can propel you towards space!

    Remember when I said happiness was a big part of Scotland's science generation? Well say hello to Golf Courses! They provide extra ammenities so will help keep your empire ecstatic with you. Keeping your science output going.

    Scotland has some good boosts to science. I'm not the biggest fan of so much of it being tied to how happy your cities are because if you want to go to war you could end up compromising that. However, what Scotland does have is very good and if your looking for a purely peaceful science game Scotland might be the civ for you.

    7) Inca

    Inca have been a lot of people's favourite civ as of late, especially when it comes to science wins and it's not hard to see why.

    A mountain start bias ensures that no matter what you can get some decent adjacencies for campus'.

    With terrace farms and their bonus' to food and production from them the Inca can grow VERY tall cities. I remember a post from a while ago where someone got an Inca city to over 60+ pop. Imagine that with rationalism! Combine this with Pingala early on and rationalism later on and you will have a science monster on your hands. The extra production helps with space projects too.

    The fact they can workountain tiles is very advantageous for them since it makes settling them easier.

    The Inca are a very unique civ and hopefully I've justified why I placed them in number 7.


    8) Macedonia

    I'm not gonna lie, I was going to exclude Macedonia from the list since their way towards a science victory in my opinion works better for domination. But after a recent game Macedon did really well scientifically with barely any Campus' so... Here they are!

    Basically it's all thanks to their UB the Basilikoi Paidies. (Hope I spelt that right.) It's found in the encampment district and what it does is let you get science from every unit you build. And considering Macedon gets to UU in the classical era that adds up pretty quickly on top of that Macedon just takes cities. Ultimately it's what they are designed to do. The more cities you have, the more science potential you have.

    This works well with another ability Macedon has. When they conquer a city with an encampment/campus they get Eureka's for it. Plus no war weariness is nice too.

    All in all their bonus' might be better for domination than science. But with loyalty being a thing science is an excellent backup for Macedonia and it is such a good way for them to achieve a science win and that is why they are number 8.

    9) Japan

    Be prepared. Japan are going to be in a lot of these lists.

    Though that's not hard to see why. They are easily one of the most versatile civs in the game. But what provides their science? Adjacency.

    Basically thanks to Meiji restoration you can rack up some insane adjacencies later in the game from districts. Remember, government plazas and city centers count as districts too. The downside of Japan's ability to gain adjacency on their Campus' compared to other civs higher on the list is that it is going to take some time to build these districts together. So you won't get the maximum science yield you can get until maybe medieval era onwards. Not to mention you will need to pack your cities close together to get the most out of this. However, it is insanely powerful if done right and is damn impressive to look at too.

    Samurai aid with the domination aspect of science wins. Since they fight as if at full health they are a force to be reckoned with, allowing you to take cities and as I always say. More cities = more science. Or they could be the perfect defensive unit.

    Basically Japan acts like a jack of all trades, master of whatever they want to be kind of civ to me. If they gear towards science they can do very well. That's why they are number 9 for me.

    10) China

    Some of you are probably going to ruin me over this one, but I genuinely beleive China are great for science victories and here's why.

    An extra build charge at the start of the game means you can improve the tiles around your cities a little easier compared to other civs. Add Liang to that and you can have up to 8 build charges on your builders if you can get the pyramids.

    You can rush early wonders important to your science victory such as the Great Library, The Oracle and the Pyramids. The oracle in particular is fantastic since you will get more great scientist points from your Campus' and patronage of great people becomes cheaper.

    China will get 50% on their Eurekas and inspirations instead of the usual 40%. Depending on map and who or what is nearby this ability can either be mediocre or amazing. Potentially saving you time on techs. Normally I find the early game inspirations and eurekas relatively easy to achieve.

    Science victories with china are a bit different since outside of the extra 10% on eurekas they get no bonus' to science. Instead they use their civ abilities to create their advantages and snowball from there. It's for this reason that I beleive China just barely makes it into the top 10.


    Phew, that's all of them. It took me a long time to do this. Domination is next but I will need time to think it through. But let me know if you've enjoyed this and I look forward to your comments.
     
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  2. Leucarum

    Leucarum Chieftain

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    What about Aztecs? Using builder charges for spaceports (in addition to associated projects with Royal Society) means they don't even need much production to win a space race... They don't have early game boosts to science but they're pretty good at taking whatever land they need for campus locations...
     
  3. Kwami

    Kwami Chieftain

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    Bah, they have one of the best early game boosts! Just set up outside a city-state and farm builders for a while. You'll save so much in production by not producing builders or districts manually! Plus, since those builders came from elsewhere, your future builders will also be way cheaper than they would be otherwise. It's great!
     
  4. Leucarum

    Leucarum Chieftain

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    Fair point, what I should have said was "any direct early game boosts to science". They are for sure one of the most potent early game civs
     
  5. Pietato

    Pietato Warlord

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    Yeah, you need to add Aztecs in the top 5 and boot China off your list.
     
  6. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Only with the Magic Wand and Fairy Dust of Civ6 would Australia and (contentiously) the Aztecs be on that list, judging from a historical point-of-view. :undecide:
     
  7. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Chieftain

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    Netherlands should not be top 5, but probably 6-10. Lots of easy good adjacency campus + industrial districts and polders give great production (although you'll need a bit of luck for a good setup... but that's true of many of these civs)
     
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  8. Caprikel

    Caprikel Chieftain

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    If we were going by historical accuracy, that list wouldn't even be recognizable.
     
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  9. Krajzen

    Krajzen Warlord

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    Australia is among highest developed, most livable countries of the modern world and among top science powerhouses and economic powers of the world. Personally I also wouldn't include them and Canada but because they are boring to me, not because they are weak IRL (seriously we have 4 "English dominated" factions now).

    Aztecs developed unique and advanced culture and one of few biggest, most advanced cities on the planet in their prime, and the only reason they fell was because of geographic bad luck - invincible disease which killed 90% of their population. Also 90-99% of the army that take them down consisted of Indian allies of Cortez.


    I don't get why did you accuse th em of IRL weakness instead of Mapuche, Cree, Maori and Zulu which deserve that criticism much more :p Personally I accept Mapuche because of their amazingly effectie resistance to Spanish military and Maori as personification of Oceania. Cree I only tolerate because of "token NA natives" rule, otherwise I couldn't respect them less. Or I could, because I have completely no respect to Zulu whom I'd kick out from this game all the way since 1991.
     
  10. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Warlord

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    You are way over-stating their "advancement".
    They were definitely scientifically "advanced" in some fields compared to other civs in North and South America, but they were not even close to
    what other civs had risen to in Asia and Europe. Given another 500 years, or 1,000 years, they would not have caught up to the rest of the world
    if they remained in isolation.
     
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  11. Krajzen

    Krajzen Warlord

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    Of course they were backwards. They were backwards because of geographic isolation - they had no benefit of transfer of knowledge which happened all over Eurafrasia, unlike Europe which was built on the shoulders of Rome, Greece and "barbarians" while getting bonus tech transfer from East.

    But Civ series are free from geographic handicap which hampered growth of all Precolombian civs as well as huge part of Subsaharan Africa - so we can take the most impressive civs of both regions and imagine "what would happen if their culture emerged in more advantageous conditions".

    Besides, if we kick out Aztecs because "realism, they were backwards" then why not kick out European nations "realism, they were not even close to appearing for 3/4 of the game's timeframe", not to mention European colonies such as America ("they are just Europeans but intermixed and separated by geography") etc etc

    But the entire fun is "we take interesting and impressive historical cultures and free them from the shackles of their time and space"
     
  12. AsparustheSaiyan

    AsparustheSaiyan Chieftain

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    You guys make some interesting points. What I'm going to do is revise the list and probably add Aztecs and Netherlands to the list. Where abouts though? I don't know yet lol.
     
  13. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    You obviously didn't quite understand the context of my comment. I wasn't referring to civilizations actually as being in the game, but being "scientific powerhouses." The Aztecs had very few innovations uniquely of their own. They were wandering nomads related to the Hopi, Commanche, Shoshone, and Ute came down from "Aridamerica" to the Valley of Mexico and basically adopted wholesale the technological, architectural, military, religious, scientific, etc. advancements of the Toltecs and Teohuatican, making a few innovations of their own, yes - like their form of tributary empire, their Venice-like canal city, the chinampas to drain swampy land, etc. - but mostly taking what was already there. They also seemed very resistant to change or advancement by the time Cortes showed up.

    As for Australia, yes, they're a modern First World culture with academic and university advancement, but I wouldn't say they outrank Canada, the United States, or France, as a scientific power today, and are certainly not, all and all, one of the great scientific juggernauts of history.
     
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  14. Arent11

    Arent11 Chieftain

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    I'm not against having some fun & making some obscure civs "science" civs. And Babylon, Korea, Greece etc. can be argued to have been quite "scientific" for their time. However, I'm always a bit flabbergasted that all the civs of industrialization & enlightenment somehow manage to be "overlooked" and get no science bonuses whatsoever.

    I mean, take the pityful England - sorry, but electricity, railroads, factories - and all they get are a few military engineers that can build railroads which no one uses anyway. They should at least have something like a better 'oxford' university, or a discount to great scientists. How can Babylon or Korea compare to the development of gravity, electricity, even steam power?

    Or take Germany - their science & industrialization is represented by the Hansa - which was a trade empire in the middle ages(!)

    It is as if the age of industrialization & enlightenment somehow does not exist in the minds of the designers. Or, even worse, only as a negative development that brought us pollution.
     
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  15. Patine

    Patine Warlord

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    Oh, I fully agree. And, of course, Russia and Japan became scientific, industrial, and academic giants too - but their in-game portrayals are always strongly and powerfully rooted in their monarchial, feudal, backward, violent, repressive, and reactionary periods of their histories, anyways...
     
  16. Naeshar

    Naeshar Chieftain

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    I will argue. The unique campus breaks the game horribly and makes Korea a scientific powerhouse. A one-trick pony if you wish.
    However the Seowon has AT MOST +4 adjacency. Other districts give negative adjacency to it, only adjacent mines get some more science when worked.
    You should also consider Norway situational now, as they get science from pillaging unlike other Civs.

    I don't care about the ranking. It does not reflect the fun level in the game.
     
  17. Wingednosering

    Wingednosering Chieftain

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    Pretty sure Norway's pillaging trumps Macedon for science now.
     
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  18. OmegaDestroyer

    OmegaDestroyer Chieftain

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    I disagree. Macedon benefits from churning out units in war and peace. Norway only benefits from being at war.
     
  19. Kwami

    Kwami Chieftain

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    I mean, England gets bonuses to electricity (+2 to all powered buildings), railroads (additional Military Engineer charges), and factories (additional resources to burn in the Power Plants, and +2 for powered Factories). So, I'm not sure what you're getting at. If you think that England is weak, OK, but let's not pretend that they aren't thematically pretty cool. And let's not pretend that they "developed" gravity, electricity, or steam power. English academics and inventors played their parts, but all three of those ideas were developed through international collaboration.

    It's a poor name, but the Hansa district is fantastic for giving Germany lots of production, which leads to more everything. And, since they get an extra district in each city, there's no reason not to build Hansas.

    In general, though, we're talking about civilizations with hundreds or thousands of years of history. You aren't going to get everything in 3-5 abilities.
     
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  20. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Having played Korea few times, it's a bit overrated for normal gameplay, i.e. not 'conquest-fueled city size 7 ICS spam'. I'd rather rank Germany, Netherlands or Inca for top science victory civs. I'd trade consistent high production in multiple cities over high science.

    The +4 adjacency for Seowon is nice, but finding a lonely hill that you won't need for a mine or adjacent tiles for other districs makes it actually quite hard to place, especially for flatland cities that have 1-2 hills max, and one of them you have to sac for the Seowon. This is especially true for the first few cities, as hills content for mines, Oracle etc.

    And the other thing is it gets a flat +4 adjacency that usually ends up dropping to +3 eventually, because other districts are important as well (and while buying tiles is nice, there's an opportunity cost for gold which people tend to overlook). It's true that it boosts mines on adjacent hills, so theoretically it could scale up to +10, but lets be realistic this will be in 1 out of 5 games and in one city only AND you'll spend quite a few tile purchases setting it up. 5 or 6 is a more realistic number.

    The inca, for example, also get an extra "+5 adjacency bonus" just due to sheer population numbers you can pull off, compared to Korea. Hills and great amounts of surplus food don't usually mix, except if you're inca :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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