Aspyr/Civ5 Coming

[dojoboy]

It seems Aspyr is nearing an announcement of Civ5 for the Mac. There was a product link active, but now it's 'hidden."

http://www.aspyr.com/product/info/125

It currently takes you to a "product not found" page.

 

[civ_king]

It seems Aspyr is nearing an announcement of Civ5 for the Mac. There was a product link active, but now it's 'hidden."

http://www.aspyr.com/product/info/125

It currently takes you to a "product not found" page.

It did say Civ V?

 

[dojoboy]

It did say Civ V?

I'm trusting a good source. He posted this at IMG's Mac Strategy forum.

 

[Skwink]

YES!!! Soon hopefully!!

 

[Xyth]

Hmm. If it's Aspyr doing it I am very worried, especially when it comes to multiplayer and SDK support. They did an appalling job overall on Civ4 and they don't even have Brad Oliver anymore. Hopefully they'll redeem themselves but I know that I will absolutely not buy Civ5 from them without full SDK support.

Thanks for the heads up though, I shall follow the situation with concerned optimism.

 

[Skwink]

Hmm. If it's Aspyr doing it I am very worried, especially when it comes to multiplayer and SDK support. They did an appalling job overall on Civ4 and they don't even have Brad Oliver anymore. Hopefully they'll redeem themselves but I know that I will absolutely not buy Civ5 from them without full SDK support.

Thanks for the heads up though, I shall follow the situation with concerned optimism.

I for one, had no problems with cIV Mac. I am just happy for a native version of ciV.

Could you post a link to the post on IGM?

 

[dojoboy]

I for one, had no problems with cIV Mac. I am just happy for a native version of ciV.

Could you post a link to the post on IGM?

link

 

[civ_king]

I'd be willing to Beta test (definitely not alpha though)

 

[Skwink]

link

I am don't think this is real. Wouldn't he report it a lot more if he found it?

 

[dojoboy]

I am don't think this is real. Wouldn't he report it a lot more if he found it?

Aspyr is known for putting up product pages prematurely. They have pulled it, but it was up long enough for it to get spotted. Trust me, it's practically SOP.

 

[bio_hazard]

Just curious if anyone has time lines for civ 3 and civ 4 development? I know they might not be predictive of the Civ5 cycle, but it would be fun to speculate about a release date...

 

[Lachlan]

Nice that Civ 5 is planned for Mac OS X

 

[Xyth]

Just curious if anyone has time lines for civ 3 and civ 4 development? I know they might not be predictive of the Civ5 cycle, but it would be fun to speculate about a release date...

In both cases the original version came out not too long after the Windows version. However the expansions were sometimes YEARS late.

What I really want to know at this stage is if this Mac version of Civ5 is going to use Steam or not. I'm hoping yes because if not we can probably kiss multiplayer and mod compatibility goodbye.

 

[AlanH]

Why would Steam make any difference to MP and mods? Civ4 is on Steam, but it wasn't changed in those respects - it's the same software that you get on a DVD apart from the DRM.

I suppose Steam *might* put commercial pressure on Aspyr to ensure that these features are included in the port, but it will still be down to Aspyr to make them happen.

 

[Skwink]

Aspyr is known for putting up product pages prematurely. They have pulled it, but it was up long enough for it to get spotted. Trust me, it's practically SOP.

Alright, awesome

 

[Xyth]

Why would Steam make any difference to MP and mods? Civ4 is on Steam, but it wasn't changed in those respects - it's the same software that you get on a DVD apart from the DRM.

I suppose Steam *might* put commercial pressure on Aspyr to ensure that these features are included in the port, but it will still be down to Aspyr to make them happen.

I'm thinking mostly in terms of patching. Steam is compulsory for Windows Civ5, even if you didn't buy it via Valve, and patches are delivered via the Steam service. If there's an update it gets automatically installed before you launch the game. There's already been one such patch.

If Aspyr are maintaining Mac Civ5 separately from Steam (or possibly even with Steam) then it's likely that we'll regularly fall behind the current version of the game while we wait for Aspyr to catch up. And multiplayer isn't possible between mismatched versions.

As for mods, in Civ5 mods are mostly chosen and downloaded from within the game itself, presumably via Steam's servers. The SDK isn't out yet but from what I read from some modders who beta tested it, it uses proprietary compression and graphic formats that can only be edited with the SDK and not third party software.

There may be ways around all of this, it's still too early to tell. But it would be nice for once to have it all just work and not have to limitations or need workarounds. Aspyr's track record on support for the Civ series so far is pretty unimpressive and it seems Civ5 is going to require even more from them than previous titles.

 

[AlanH]

Civ5 for Mac could be a different distribution on Steam, just as Civ4 for Mac is. I can see every reason to *hope* that Aspyr would get with the program and ensure that Mac Civ5 becomes fully integrated into the online Steam experience. But I don't think they have to, and since they certainly didn't embrace the full online and modding ethos for Civ4, it's quite likely they'll give it a miss this time as well.

For information, the SDK *is* out. I've got it running on my Parallels VM. It is heavily integrated with Microsoft's Visual Studio environment, so any porting of that capability to OS X is going to mean a substantial piece of Mac-specific development of an Xcode tool-chain. The IDE interfaces with GameSpy for mod publishing, not Steam, and that interface will also need to be replicated to Mac.

So there's a range of mod-support options for Aspyr if and when they bring out Civ5 for Mac. They can do what they have done for Civ4 - just create a standalone game that can barely play in multiplayer mode. The can make it capable of running mods created using the Firaxis SDK in Windows. Or they can do a lot of work to make a Mac-native version of the SDK. My bets are that they will stop short of doing the native SDK.

PS. I note that there is a field in the modinfo file called "SupportsMac". Dale's blog describes this as follows:

As the name says, the mod is compatible for the Mac version of Civilization 5. (NOTE: This does NOT confirm a Mac version of Civilization 5 is coming, just that the mod tools will support Mac's if there is a version.)

So, the good news is that Firaxis have taken one baby step towards recognising the need to identify mods that support a Mac version. The bad news is that they don't necessarily expect mods to *automatically* run on Macs.

 

[Xyth]

Well I just had a good read through Kael's modding guide for Civ5 and my heart sank. It seems that the game no longer parses XML on it's own, rather the SDK tool called ModBuddy is used to package it and convert it to the SQL that the game actually reads. This means the SDK is required for even the simplest changes, i.e renaming a city or changing the strength of a unit.

As Alan mentioned, ModBuddy (which is the core of the SDK) requires some Microsoft IDE stuff - not something that Aspyr can port to Mac, instead they (or someone) would have to pretty much rewrite or recreate ModBuddy to work independently or with something like Xcode. What's more, ModBuddy requires a Civ5 installation to function, meaning that if we want to run the SDK via VM we need to purchase a copy of Civ5 for Windows anyway.

Basically it's looking extremely unlikely that Aspyr would give Mac modders anything more than WorldBuilder (map creator). Firaxis wanted to make Civ5 easier to mod (which they have, the SDK is awesome) but by using proprietary formats and Windows only IDE's they're killing it on our side. Aspyr did a poor job on Civ4 but Firaxis have gone and made it even harder for them with Civ5.

Having said that, I can't see any reason why the Mac version of Civ5 couldn't run mods made on Windows so long as there are no DLL changes (just like Civ4). DLL support is not in the SDK yet and probably won't be for a while yet so it's still a big unanswered question whether the DLL would be cross compatible with Mac. I strongly suspect that they won't be, which will rule out all the big name mods yet again.

To sum up this could all create a situation where we rely completely on Windows modders to make their mods Mac compatible because the tools simply aren't available to people like myself to adjust them. I hate to sound so negative so early on, but I think we're potentially looking at Civ5 being worse for mods on Mac than Civ4 was.

 

[Skwink]

Well I just had a good read through Kael's modding guide for Civ5 and my heart sank. It seems that the game no longer parses XML on it's own, rather the SDK tool called ModBuddy is used to package it and convert it to the SQL that the game actually reads. This means the SDK is required for even the simplest changes, i.e renaming a city or changing the strength of a unit.

As Alan mentioned, ModBuddy (which is the core of the SDK) requires some Microsoft IDE stuff - not something that Aspyr can port to Mac, instead they (or someone) would have to pretty much rewrite or recreate ModBuddy to work independently or with something like Xcode. What's more, ModBuddy requires a Civ5 installation to function, meaning that if we want to run the SDK via VM we need to purchase a copy of Civ5 for Windows anyway.

Basically it's looking extremely unlikely that Aspyr would give Mac modders anything more than WorldBuilder (map creator). Firaxis wanted to make Civ5 easier to mod (which they have, the SDK is awesome) but by using proprietary formats and Windows only IDE's they're killing it on our side. Aspyr did a poor job on Civ4 but Firaxis have gone and made it even harder for them with Civ5.

Having said that, I can't see any reason why the Mac version of Civ5 couldn't run mods made on Windows so long as there are no DLL changes (just like Civ4). DLL support is not in the SDK yet and probably won't be for a while yet so it's still a big unanswered question whether the DLL would be cross compatible with Mac. I strongly suspect that they won't be, which will rule out all the big name mods yet again.

To sum up this could all create a situation where we rely completely on Windows modders to make their mods Mac compatible because the tools simply aren't available to people like myself to adjust them. I hate to sound so negative so early on, but I think we're potentially looking at Civ5 being worse for mods on Mac than Civ4 was.

Well, I love History Rewritten, but I don't want ciV for the mods, I want the base game. I played Civ IV moddless, and it was still a great game. (I still do sometimes, HR is a HUGE job for my Macbook to handle)

 

[Xyth]

Turns out I was wrong. The XML -> SQL is handled by Civ5 itself, not ModBuddy, so we should be able to make or edit XML and LUA based mods without it. I imagine we're going to end up with a modding situation roughly the same as Civ4.

I need to stop overanalyzing and fretting about something that doesn't even exist yet ><

Well, I love History Rewritten, but I don't want ciV for the mods, I want the base game. I played Civ IV moddless, and it was still a great game. (I still do sometimes, HR is a HUGE job for my Macbook to handle)

Yeah, getting Civ5 without mods is still infinitely better than no Civ5 at all. I'm just biased cos my favourite aspect of the game is the bit least likely to be ported. I accept that I'm in the minority.