Assorted balance issues/questions (SVN9199)

[TrippedOnACloud]

Just a handful of balance issues and minor bugs from SVN9199:

Tamed Mammoth and Elephant require both the resource and the Myth in order to be trained. This makes them significantly harder to spread than the other animal resources (Cow, Pig, Donkey, Camel, Horse, etc), as they typically require only resource access to produce their tamed version.

Sheep and Cow seem to be extremely rare on the PerfectMongoose map script. I'm typically only seeing 1-2 of each appear in an entire Large map.

Hellsmouth Dog, from the Voodoo religion, is entirely unbuildable due to its being able to upgrade to Stone Spearman, of all the silly things.

There's a random Slavery (Promotion?) attached to String Analysis (Future Tech), shouldn't this be set to Z Dummy Tech like the others?

Various heroes should be allowed to settle as Great Admiral instead of or along with Great Military Instructor, now that there's a distinction. Yi Sun-Sin, Zheng He, Nelson, Michel de Ruyter, Henry the Navigator, and Sinbad all spring to mind. I'm sure there are others.

The Mercenaries Military civic still seems to be extremely overpowered. The +11XP is often 2-3 levels for new-build units, which makes a significant difference in strength. Also, the increased upkeep cost does not persist past a switch away from Mercenaries. I feel like along with the current Marauder promotion granted by the civic (+gold on victory), there should be another promotion granted that permanently increases the upkeep cost for units produced under Mercenaries, or offers some other drawback.

The Top 5 Cities/Wonders page of the stat screen is broken. Is this an intentional removal, or inadvertent?

Hashishan (stronger UU from Alamut wonder) can upgrade to... ships? What?

I somehow managed to cause all resources generated in an area around a conquered city to be multiplied by 5, permanently. This includes a Culture wonder in the city itself, and several map resources in its radius. I suspect it's related to a gain/loss of access to the trade network. Specific sequence of events went something like this: Conquest of city and two nearby cities, with trade access provided only via a coastal route (no road access). Next turn, while conquered cities are still in anarchy, trade access is cut off by a blockading enemy Outrigger. However, said Outrigger is parked on top of a reef, and dies (apparently to terrain damage, but it's possible an animal munched it) before my own ships reach it. Blockade is lifted, trade access regained. A few turns later, I notice that I have 5 of the Culture resource, and a check shows 5x the other local resources as well.

Units set to automate Hunt do not attempt to attack stacked enemies. Especially noticeable when Hunters fail to attack stacks of Animals, especially those that tend to build up on top of an animal resource as a result of spawning.

Slavery can allow for some truly absurd super-cities. My capital currently has a population of 90+ (over 100,000,000, according to the city screen ) in the late Renaissance, with a population of nearly 1000 settled slave specialists of various types. For reference, that's something like 4 times the population of the entire Shanghai or Beijing metropolitan areas, before I've even discovered the Scientific Method.

Nefertiti is a needy little b****. She made a tech request every single turn for 5 or 6 turns in a row before I got fed up and told her to stay away. Mind, I do have random personalities on, but even so, that's a truly absurd level of begging.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Tamed Mammoth and Elephant require both the resource and the Myth in order to be trained. This makes them significantly harder to spread than the other animal resources (Cow, Pig, Donkey, Camel, Horse, etc), as they typically require only resource access to produce their tamed version.

They should be harder to spread due to their nature. However I am willing to change Elephants. Mammoths on the other hand should only be able to spread if you have the mammoth wonder.

Hellsmouth Dog, from the Voodoo religion, is entirely unbuildable due to its being able to upgrade to Stone Spearman, of all the silly things.

Yep it is a bug. If anything they should be upgrading to one of the canine units. They used to so something has gone wrong somewhere.

There's a random Slavery (Promotion?) attached to String Analysis (Future Tech), shouldn't this be set to Z Dummy Tech like the others?

Yes bug. I don't think that promotion is used any more so need to investigate its removal while we are cleaning stuff up. edit removed SVN 9204.

Various heroes should be allowed to settle as Great Admiral instead of or along with Great Military Instructor, now that there's a distinction. Yi Sun-Sin, Zheng He, Nelson, Michel de Ruyter, Henry the Navigator, and Sinbad all spring to mind. I'm sure there are others.

Oversight from when we introduced the Great Admiral. We need to go through the lot and decide which should be able to settle as a Mil Instructor or Admiral or both. Yi for example should be both while Nelson should only be an Admiral.

The Mercenaries Military civic still seems to be extremely overpowered. The +11XP is often 2-3 levels for new-build units, which makes a significant difference in strength. Also, the increased upkeep cost does not persist past a switch away from Mercenaries. I feel like along with the current Marauder promotion granted by the civic (+gold on victory), there should be another promotion granted that permanently increases the upkeep cost for units produced under Mercenaries, or offers some other drawback.

Great idea.

The Top 5 Cities/Wonders page of the stat screen is broken. Is this an intentional removal, or inadvertent?

Bug.

Hashishan (stronger UU from Alamut wonder) can upgrade to... ships? What?

Bug. They should upgrade to one of the Assassin line or Spy line or Fanatic line.

Units set to automate Hunt do not attempt to attack stacked enemies. Especially noticeable when Hunters fail to attack stacks of Animals, especially those that tend to build up on top of an animal resource as a result of spawning.

Known problem.

Slavery can allow for some truly absurd super-cities. My capital currently has a population of 90+ (over 100,000,000, according to the city screen ) in the late Renaissance, with a population of nearly 1000 settled slave specialists of various types. For reference, that's something like 4 times the population of the entire Shanghai or Beijing metropolitan areas, before I've even discovered the Scientific Method.

Yes indeed. I have found that CivPlayer8's civics reduce the problem. It is in part due to the insistence that there be no limits to city population size. The number of settled slaves in a city was going to be limited to no more than 10 times the current population number but I got side tracked.

Nefertiti is a needy little b****. She made a tech request every single turn for 5 or 6 turns in a row before I got fed up and told her to stay away. Mind, I do have random personalities on, but even so, that's a truly absurd level of begging.

Probably a trait/personality thing. I have not seen this in any game I have played. It does suggest that some work on diplomacy is needed. After all I don't think we have touched that part of the game yet.


EDIT Now that is very strange - the XML for the Hellsmouth Dog says it upgrades to the Police Dog but the pedia says Stone Spearman. I can find nothing in the XML which connects the Hellsmouth Dog and the Spearman I hope we have not reached an array limit or something.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

They should be harder to spread due to their nature. However I am willing to change Elephants. Mammoths on the other hand should only be able to spread if you have the mammoth wonder.

I don't actually disagree in principle, but I think the implementation is off. That is, as things currently are it's very all-or-nothing, rather than feeling like Elephants and Mammoths are more time-consuming or costly to breed compared to more normal domesticated animals. If you successfully subdued one, you effectively have unlimited inexpensive spread, as they spawn from their map resource, thereby guaranteeing eventual access to the resource. If you fail to subdue one before the map resource gets settled, you have zero ability to spread them, aside from the Great Farmer. It makes the ability to mass-spread them luck-based rather than strategy/effort-based.

I actually think outright removing the Tamed Elephant and Tamed Mammoth, or changing the way they work, would be a better solution than making the gate the Myth. In fact, here's an idea: Remove Tamed variants entirely, but add a Great Farmer analog (Pachyderm Breeder?) with the ability to create the map resource, but NOT the herd building. Thus, once you have access to the resource and the appropriate tech, they can be spread at will, provided you are willing to make the investment in time and production. Herd building can still be built by Subdued ones.

As a related aside, how come there's no way to spread Sheep (again, aside from the GF)? I can't think of any reason for the lack, really. Someone should go clone the Subdued Mouflon and create a Tamed Sheep. Not me, because I'm lazy and don't know the structure of the mod's code, but someone

Yes indeed. I have found that CivPlayer8's civics reduce the problem. It is in part due to the insistence that there be no limits to city population size. The number of settled slaves in a city was going to be limited to no more than 10 times the current population number but I got side tracked.

I think the biggest culprit is actually the Ark of the Covenant and similar wonders with a no- effect. C2C has huge numbers of sources of and , and being able to wipe out all is tremendously powerful. I wonder how it would affect things if these were all changed to, for example, "No from population or buildings"?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I don't actually disagree in principle, but I think the implementation is off. That is, as things currently are it's very all-or-nothing, rather than feeling like Elephants and Mammoths are more time-consuming or costly to breed compared to more normal domesticated animals. If you successfully subdued one, you effectively have unlimited inexpensive spread, as they spawn from their map resource, thereby guaranteeing eventual access to the resource. If you fail to subdue one before the map resource gets settled, you have zero ability to spread them, aside from the Great Farmer. It makes the ability to mass-spread them luck-based rather than strategy/effort-based.

I actually think outright removing the Tamed Elephant and Tamed Mammoth, or changing the way they work, would be a better solution than making the gate the Myth. In fact, here's an idea: Remove Tamed variants entirely, but add a Great Farmer analog (Pachyderm Breeder?) with the ability to create the map resource, but NOT the herd building. Thus, once you have access to the resource and the appropriate tech, they can be spread at will, provided you are willing to make the investment in time and production. Herd building can still be built by Subdued ones.

It is a bit hap hazard at the moment as some of it is experimental. I dislike the Great Farmer for a number of reasons, not least because having a Great Farmer coded the way it is means we can't have a Great Geologist or other resource finder unit.

After watching Americpox: The Missing Plague and Zebra vs Horses (Ameripox part 2) YouTube loads by CGP Grey I have a better idea on how these things should work.

As a related aside, how come there's no way to spread Sheep (again, aside from the GF)? I can't think of any reason for the lack, really. Someone should go clone the Subdued Mouflon and create a Tamed Sheep. Not me, because I'm lazy and don't know the structure of the mod's code, but someone

I think I have done the programming for both the sheep and pigs, I have just not gotten to the XML. Same for cattle.

 

[Thunderbrd]

About the hellsmouth dog and the other incorrect upgrade (hashishin I think) are they referencing UNIT_ or UNITCLASS_ ? This may be the issue. I've made this mistake before. Can't work on it right now though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

About the hellsmouth dog and the other incorrect upgrade (hashishin I think) are they referencing UNIT_ or UNITCLASS_ ? This may be the issue. I've made this mistake before. Can't work on it right now though.

I was just thinking the same thing - easy enough to check...

edit Yep was for Hellsmouth Dog

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

New thing! Food Supply Trains require a Castle to build. Castles are replaced at Metallurgy, and obsoleted at Economics, but the next upgrade is the Food Freight, which requires Motorized Transportation. There is thus a very large gap in the chain when you can only build the earlier Food Caravan. Shouldn't the Food Supply Train require a Trading Post like the Supply Train does instead?

 

[JosEPh_II]

Nice list. And glad you made a separate thread for tracking.

Be advised though, these may Not be addressed post haste. Still major house cleaning going on. And Real Life is imposing it's will on the Mod Team.

JosEPh

 

[cammcken]

Found three more small issues:

"Unlimited Wonders" setting: When this is unchecked, you wonders are limited by the culture level of the city. (I believe this remains balanced when using the "Realistic Culture Spread" option... Has anyone checked?). However, I noticed (v36, not SVN) that, when capturing foreign cities, the culture level resets, and all wonders except the first are destroyed.

Is this true? Are they instead "deactivated" and hidden until I bring the culture back up?

Is this intentional? If so, it's brutal. I capture an enemy capitol with the Colossus and Chichen Itza, and all I get are the Charlie Lake Caves.

I'm playing with Unlimited Wonders on until this gets addressed.


"Usable Mountains" option: There is a long period of time after Stone Tools Workshop becomes obsolete and before Mountain Mines are available, when map bonuses generated on mountains are inaccessible.

If mountains are truly meant to to be inaccessible until Mountain Mines, then Stone Tools Workshops should not be allowed on them.

If you're all ok with Stone Tools Workshop on mountains, then the obsolete date must be pushed farther back. Doesn't seem realistic that those who get work mules before mining get access to mountain resources while those who reverse the order do not.


Battlefield Promotions: Grants promotions waaay too freely for combats with low chances of winning but high chances of withdrawing.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Found three more small issues:

"Unlimited Wonders" setting: When this is unchecked, you wonders are limited by the culture level of the city. (I believe this remains balanced when using the "Realistic Culture Spread" option... Has anyone checked?). However, I noticed (v36, not SVN) that, when capturing foreign cities, the culture level resets, and all wonders except the first are destroyed.

Is this true? Are they instead "deactivated" and hidden until I bring the culture back up?

Is this intentional? If so, it's brutal. I capture an enemy capitol with the Colossus and Chichen Itza, and all I get are the Charlie Lake Caves.

I'm playing with Unlimited Wonders on until this gets addressed.


"Usable Mountains" option: There is a long period of time after Stone Tools Workshop becomes obsolete and before Mountain Mines are available, when map bonuses generated on mountains are inaccessible.

If mountains are truly meant to to be inaccessible until Mountain Mines, then Stone Tools Workshops should not be allowed on them.

If you're all ok with Stone Tools Workshop on mountains, then the obsolete date must be pushed farther back. Doesn't seem realistic that those who get work mules before mining get access to mountain resources while those who reverse the order do not.


Battlefield Promotions: Grants promotions waaay too freely for combats with low chances of winning but high chances of withdrawing.

If you are still using the Official v36 version Please Patch with this Patch.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=14225773&postcount=51

Thanks

JosEPh

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

More stuff, now as of SVN9265:

Animals are vulnerable to terrain damage, notably from reefs. I suppose the case could be made for the larger whales being injured by a reef somehow, but birds and fish? Not so much.

Related, I'm still noticing naval units parking on reefs and attempting to heal, slowly taking damage until they sink. This is while under automated explore or hunt orders.

The Almaghest, Rudolphine, and Las Medulas Great Wonders are ridiculously expensive, with costs more than double that of other contemporary wonders. Nothing in their effects appears to warrant this.

With the changes to Skilled Labor, Capitalist Labor seems to have become useless. Both offer the primary benefit of +10% commerce, but Skilled Labor also gives +10% trade commerce, without the unhealth penalty of Capitalist Labor. The corporation-related penalties of Skilled Labor really don't amount to much, and +20% work rate is also relatively insignificant. I feel Capitalist Labor needs to be boosted a bit, as it is much later in the tech tree.

Heroes. So, so, many heroes. The recent addition of so many cultures with heroes, all of which can settle as Great Military Instructors, results in absurdly experienced troop training. Definitely needs to be a pass on what each hero can and can't settle as eventually, though that's likely to be an extremely time-consuming project.

Finally, the big one:
The current Cultures for the Chinese historical periods are a bit of a mess. "Three Kingdoms" as a single culture is absurd, and the current "Chinese" is far too general and should probably be removed. The same thing probably applies to some of the other current cultures, but being Chinese myself it stands out more. I'd recommend the following, trying to minimize work needed but still be somewhat accurate:
Xia - Unchanged
Qin - Early Zhuge Nu - Shang Yang (name changed on unit, current Zhuge No)
Han - (some unit, roughly late Classical to early Medieval)* - Liu Bang*
(Three Kingdoms - split into Wu, Shu, Wei)
Wu - Doujian - Guan Yu (unit from current Three Kingdoms)
Shu - Zhuge Nu - Zhuge Liang (name changed on unit, current Cho Ko Nu)
Wei - (some unit, roughly mid Medieval)* - Cao Cao
Tang - Unchanged
Ming - Treasure Ship - Zheng He, Wanli (Zheng He from current Chinese)
Qing - Unchanged
People's Republic of China - Red Guard (Infantry)* - Mao Zedong*
I'm not sure what graphical assets are available or how much work would be required on that end, though. * would be new units. As a stopgap, the National Units can just use the same graphics as their generic Chinese equivalents, Liu Bang can be a renamed Abaoji, and Mao can reuse Yamamoto's graphic I suppose.

edit:
Um. Just noticed, 221B Baker Street is showing in the Civilopedia as being +1000 culture and espionage. That can't be right...

 

[Taxman66]

There is definitely a need for wide variety of various balancing. Some more important than others. The massive amount of cultures one can obtain is perhaps the biggest. Playing with limited Great Wonders helps, but can be frustrating if you haven't memorized (or are too lazy to dig through the 'pedia and make a list) them.

For what it's worth, my immediate suggestion would be to put a severe limit on the number cultures you can get each era (say 2?) and that cultures from previous/old era's just obsolete. I think this would help make each game unique in that not every damn culture shows up somehow/someway. Additionally I'd remove the starting regional culture and all the dependencies upon such. (For the record I'd limit the number of religions you could pick up as well).

Long term, I'd like to see a restructuring of the culture system into something of a decision tree where what you pick early influences what you can or can not take later on.

 

[JosEPh_II]

There is definitely a need for wide variety of various balancing. Some more important than others. The massive amount of cultures one can obtain is perhaps the biggest. Playing with limited Great Wonders helps, but can be frustrating if you haven't memorized (or are too lazy to dig through the 'pedia and make a list) them.

For what it's worth, my immediate suggestion would be to put a severe limit on the number cultures you can get each era (say 2?) and that cultures from previous/old era's just obsolete. I think this would help make each game unique in that not every damn culture shows up somehow/someway. Additionally I'd remove the starting regional culture and all the dependencies upon such. (For the record I'd limit the number of religions you could pick up as well).

Long term, I'd like to see a restructuring of the culture system into something of a decision tree where what you pick early influences what you can or can not take later on.

@Tripped and Taxman,

Cultures is Sparth's newest addition so perhaps a thread for discussing it with him would be appropriate.

As for limiting Religions you already have 2 options that will do that. There is no need for any more. There are many of us who prefer Multiple religions and use the BUG Option Multiple Religion Spread. Something you can turnoff to also aid in limiting Religions (so you actually have 3 Options). If I had my way these 3 Options would be reduced to only 1.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

"Unlimited Wonders" setting: When this is unchecked, you wonders are limited by the culture level of the city. (I believe this remains balanced when using the "Realistic Culture Spread" option... Has anyone checked?). However, I noticed (v36, not SVN) that, when capturing foreign cities, the culture level resets, and all wonders except the first are destroyed.

Is this true? Are they instead "deactivated" and hidden until I bring the culture back up?

Is this intentional? If so, it's brutal. I capture an enemy capitol with the Colossus and Chichen Itza, and all I get are the Charlie Lake Caves.

I'm playing with Unlimited Wonders on until this gets addressed.

I play with Unlimited Wonders as a preference so I don't know but I'd suspect it's just disabled until the culture comes back up. unno:.

"Usable Mountains" option: There is a long period of time after Stone Tools Workshop becomes obsolete and before Mountain Mines are available, when map bonuses generated on mountains are inaccessible.

If mountains are truly meant to to be inaccessible until Mountain Mines, then Stone Tools Workshops should not be allowed on them.

Mountains are meant to be semi-accessible before mines. It appears to be working correctly to me so far.

If you're all ok with Stone Tools Workshop on mountains, then the obsolete date must be pushed farther back. Doesn't seem realistic that those who get work mules before mining get access to mountain resources while those who reverse the order do not.

Sure it does. Those cultures that developed the aid of climbing pack animals were able to make use of those lands earlier than other civilizations.

Battlefield Promotions: Grants promotions waaay too freely for combats with low chances of winning but high chances of withdrawing.

Known issue. Will fix at some point.

Animals are vulnerable to terrain damage, notably from reefs. I suppose the case could be made for the larger whales being injured by a reef somehow, but birds and fish? Not so much.

It's not Terrain Damage, it's Feature Damage, which is why there's an issue. The coding for feature damage didn't play quite right into the coding for terrain damage in a way that would've made it much easier to work with. I'm surprised its still a problem though since I did make some improvements there recently.

Related, I'm still noticing naval units parking on reefs and attempting to heal, slowly taking damage until they sink. This is while under automated explore or hunt orders.

Related indeed. Another segment of the code but yes, related to the same mistakes the original programmer made when setting up Feature Damage.

The Almaghest, Rudolphine, and Las Medulas Great Wonders are ridiculously expensive, with costs more than double that of other contemporary wonders. Nothing in their effects appears to warrant this.

The realignment of building costs is a big project we still need help with.

With the changes to Skilled Labor, Capitalist Labor seems to have become useless. Both offer the primary benefit of +10% commerce, but Skilled Labor also gives +10% trade commerce, without the unhealth penalty of Capitalist Labor. The corporation-related penalties of Skilled Labor really don't amount to much, and +20% work rate is also relatively insignificant. I feel Capitalist Labor needs to be boosted a bit, as it is much later in the tech tree.

You're probably right. I don't work on civics myself. Might wanna bring that up in the civics thread.

Heroes. So, so, many heroes. The recent addition of so many cultures with heroes, all of which can settle as Great Military Instructors, results in absurdly experienced troop training. Definitely needs to be a pass on what each hero can and can't settle as eventually, though that's likely to be an extremely time-consuming project.

Finally, the big one:
The current Cultures for the Chinese historical periods are a bit of a mess. "Three Kingdoms" as a single culture is absurd, and the current "Chinese" is far too general and should probably be removed. The same thing probably applies to some of the other current cultures, but being Chinese myself it stands out more. I'd recommend the following, trying to minimize work needed but still be somewhat accurate:
Xia - Unchanged
Qin - Early Zhuge Nu - Shang Yang (name changed on unit, current Zhuge No)
Han - (some unit, roughly late Classical to early Medieval)* - Liu Bang*
(Three Kingdoms - split into Wu, Shu, Wei)
Wu - Doujian - Guan Yu (unit from current Three Kingdoms)
Shu - Zhuge Nu - Zhuge Liang (name changed on unit, current Cho Ko Nu)
Wei - (some unit, roughly mid Medieval)* - Cao Cao
Tang - Unchanged
Ming - Treasure Ship - Zheng He, Wanli (Zheng He from current Chinese)
Qing - Unchanged
People's Republic of China - Red Guard (Infantry)* - Mao Zedong*
I'm not sure what graphical assets are available or how much work would be required on that end, though. * would be new units. As a stopgap, the National Units can just use the same graphics as their generic Chinese equivalents, Liu Bang can be a renamed Abaoji, and Mao can reuse Yamamoto's graphic I suppose.

Yeah... address Sparth.

Um. Just noticed, 221B Baker Street is showing in the Civilopedia as being +1000 culture and espionage. That can't be right...

Interesting. Will have to take a look at some point.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

Ok, I just noticed something that feels like a pretty significant balance issue.

I'm getting 55/27 from adding subdued animals to my cultural heritage, or whatever it's called, in cities with Cave Paintings. Considering my total research output at this point is somewhere around 150/turn, and subduing several animals per turn with a few experienced Master Hunters is fairly easy to do, that's a huge boost to early research.

I'm wondering if maybe Cave Paintings are applying a 5x multiplier to the / yields instead of an intended +5 flat / to subdued animals. Before building Cave Paintings, I believe I was getting 11/5.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Beginning gives 2 and 1 per animal.

Cave painting building gives 10 and 5 per animal

Scribe building gives 20 and 7 per animal

Library building gives 5 and 10 per animal

University gives 3 and 15 per animal

These numbers are adjusted by game speed which applies the multiplier. It is the adjustment used everywhere else that is used here.

Changing these numbers is not the problem it used to be as they are defined in one place now rather than on each animal.

 

[TrippedOnACloud]

I see. So, working as intended, but horribly imbalanced, then. I feel like the yield from Cave Paintings needs to be turned down a lot, then, to maybe 2 per animal. Culture is fine, but such a massive early research boost tied to a terrain feature is a bit much. As things currently stand, I believe a cave start that focuses cave paintings can bring in 2-3 times as much from subdued animals as from all other sources combined, once there's a few experienced hunters.

Somewhat related, the yield from Emperor Penguins is rather on the high side. They're giving me 10, whereas even Mammoths only give 7/3. I don't recall any other animals giving notably disproportionate yields.

Come to think of it, hunting / yields aren't currently scaled to game speed, while / yields are, as mentioned. Could lead to disproportionate effects on different speeds. Don't know if it should be messed with or not, though, since I'm not sure which other parameters are affected or not.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I see. So, working as intended, but horribly imbalanced, then. I feel like the yield from Cave Paintings needs to be turned down a lot, then, to maybe 2 per animal. Culture is fine, but such a massive early research boost tied to a terrain feature is a bit much. As things currently stand, I believe a cave start that focuses cave paintings can bring in 2-3 times as much from subdued animals as from all other sources combined, once there's a few experienced hunters.

Somewhat related, the yield from Emperor Penguins is rather on the high side. They're giving me 10, whereas even Mammoths only give 7/3. I don't recall any other animals giving notably disproportionate yields.

Come to think of it, hunting / yields aren't currently scaled to game speed, while / yields are, as mentioned. Could lead to disproportionate effects on different speeds. Don't know if it should be messed with or not, though, since I'm not sure which other parameters are affected or not.

I don't see any imbalance or problems here. The AI will also try to get the Cave paintings. And the player has choice. The particular game will dictate if it should be gone after or if there are other more pressing goals to be attended too.

The Emporer Penguin 10 is a welcome boon for Taiga or tundra cities that normally can not have farms or wetland camps or many other food producing tiles. Especially if that city has a much needed mineral resource and needs additional resources for city growth.

JosEPh

 

[Taxman66]

It would be nice if the pedia stated that cave paintings (and related buildings) increased the yield for the culture sacrafice button (not sure of the official term).

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't see any imbalance or problems here. The AI will also try to get the Cave paintings. And the player has choice. The particular game will dictate if it should be gone after or if there are other more pressing goals to be attended too.

The Emporer Penguin 10 is a welcome boon for Taiga or tundra cities that normally can not have farms or wetland camps or many other food producing tiles. Especially if that city has a much needed mineral resource and needs additional resources for city growth.

JosEPh

Agree with the first point but I tend to find it immersion breaking to have a mammoth give less food than a penguin. Not sure how that's supposed to make sense.