Assyria

[randomnub]

Make it auto-upgrade to some combat engineer as the time goes and call it a day?

I joined CBP quite late so couldn't comment earlier, but I have to say all civs feel playable/entertaining, and as you can see my complaints are mostly cosmetic. Flavour is important if you ask me tho

 

[ashendashin]

I agree that siege towers in modern times is flat-out ridiculous from an immersive pov, but this has been discussed before. No viable alternatives to make the civ keep performing were brought up. The dialogue became about whether they were currently UP or not (they're not), vs whether the current design is conceptually nonsensical, and should be reconsidered.

How about turning siege towers into military units that can instantly take out cities? Let melee units take them out in one hit and give a bit of defense towards range. I know, I know, it's a bit crazy, but by the time I can bring a glass cannon, I've probably won that city anyways. They'd get killed in the players hands eventually because after a certain point it would only take one hit from a city to die, while being unbelievably useful for a small period of time. This is probably a terrible suggestion, but I think it'd be really cool.

 

[Txurce]

I think the problem has been focusing on the actual siege towers as the balancing factor for Assyria. They didn't deliver enough in their original existence, so they've been kept around all game long as weird, rough compensation. So why not focus on what they get you, instead? That's science. Make the gain rewarding enough, giving Assyria a really fast start, and their UU can expire like every other one in the game. So for example, instead of gaining a tech you don't have or a decent amount of science, what if you got one (or two) techs of your choice? An early rampage (like that of the historical Assyria) could put you in a strong enough scientific position that, combined with the Royal Library's relatively late-blooming efects, would make Assyria a strong game-long civ.

 

[ashendashin]

I think the problem has been focusing on the actual siege towers as the balancing factor for Assyria. They didn't deliver enough in their original existence, so they've been kept around all game long as weird, rough compensation. So why not focus on what they get you, instead? That's science. Make the gain rewarding enough, giving Assyria a really fast start, and their UU can expire like every other one in the game. So for example, instead of gaining a tech you don't have or a decent amount of science, what if you got one (or two) techs of your choice? An early rampage (like that of the historical Assyria) could put you in a strong enough scientific position that, combined with the Royal Library's relatively late-blooming efects, would make Assyria a strong game-long civ.

We can focus on early gains, sure. That's what I was going with on my post. But wouldn't it be a little annoying to have your siege towers suddenly disappear? I kinda want them to become useless naturally, so turning them into military units would allow that. I was thinking that it would be nice to see extremely fast conquering for a short time. Though I guess there might be too large of a window to use them.

Anyways, even more science related stuff would be a bit boring. Maybe siege towers could lessen the damage cities like Rome? To avoid a copy, maybe let cities keep their walls and get less war weariness.

Edit:
This proposal is still on the lines of turning them into regular units...not even sure if a unit can do something like that...
I think something can be done to prevent siege towers sticking around for too long without changing up the UA too much. Maybe adding a new ability like I was going for above would do it. They only need something else to support their UU and it'll be up for removal at a sensible point in the game.

 

[Txurce]

But wouldn't it be a little annoying to have your siege towers suddenly disappear? I kinda want them to become useless naturally, so turning them into military units would allow that.

Anyways, even more science related stuff would be a bit boring. Maybe siege towers could lessen the damage cities like Rome? To avoid a copy, maybe let cities keep their walls and get less war weariness.

I also thought about towers causing less damage, and think that works (which could result in less resistance, or war weariness). I don't know if this is too complicated, though. The same probably would go for a solution to what to do with the towers themselves, in order to make them obsolete. One method could be to give all Assyrian Ancient and Classical units a "tower" promotion that disappears when the units upgrade.

 

[ashendashin]

I also thought about towers casing less damage, and think that works (which could result in less resistance, or war weariness). I don't know if this is too complcated, though. The same probably would go for a solution to what to do with the towers themselves, in order to make them obsolete. One method could be to give all Assyrian Ancient and Classical units a "tower" promotion that disappears when the units upgrade.

A tower promo sounds a bit interesting. Hmm. Aren't the bonuses when units are near already a sort of promotion? I suppose the question now is if it's possible for promos to affect cities like that. Could even keep the siege tower as a civilian unit if it works that way.

 

[ashendashin]

I misunderstood a bit there. Can't units lose their promotions on era advancement? If they're reworked a bit, then simply have them become obsolete around medieval/renaissance depending on the changes. Assyria's gotta have a strong UU after all.

Edit:
Or is it only on upgrades? All of this info is so scattered. I suppose if they can't be removed through certain points, then we'd have to consider if it's possible for certain thresholds to be reached for it to become irrelevant, such as defense, buildings, or anything that can block a promo.

 

[Txurce]

I misunderstood a bit there. Can't units lose their promotions on era advancement? If they're reworked a bit, then simply have them become obsolete around medieval/renaissance depending on the changes. Assyria's gotta have a strong UU after all.

I wouldn't go as far as Renaissance, and would ideally weaken them in medieval times (but again, that's probaby too complicated). I think losing the UU with the advent of pikes/knights, etc, feels right. That's long enough for a UU, which I think is the proper way to look at it. Keeping it longer is taking a weird approach to solving the payoff problem. Which is why I proposed boosting science (same payoff, so not more boring, just more of it).

 

[CrazyG]

I want to like siege towers but they just aren't useful. Its hard to find the hammers to build it early on. The sight and medic have some utility but most of the time I would rather have another unit on the field. The city bonus is nice to have but its not game changing. Its currently far more relevant in medieval/renaissance than in ancient era, you need a pretty big army before investing a noncombat siege unit makes sense. That bonus on cities could be part of the UA for all Assyrian land units and it still wouldn't be that strong.

Its a weird civ, historically its ancient but everything about its uniques pushes it towards being a strong civ later on. I don't think you can really use historical flavor too much because its going to suggest reworking the entire civ.

 

[Txurce]

Its a weird civ, historically its ancient but everything about its uniques pushes it towards being a strong civ later on. I don't think you can really use historical flavor too much because its going to suggest reworking the entire civ.

There are enough compromises in VP that it's not worth overly focusing on historical flavor. But a siege tower backing a Giant Death Robot sounds like something little kids do when playing with action figures.

 

[Funak]

Honestly, if the siegetowers cause all these problems, and the AI can't even use them properly, how about we just dump them?

I know the whole overhaul phase is over, but no point keeping a weak idea around just because of that.

 

[Txurce]

Honestly, if the siegetowers cause all these problems, and the AI can't even use them properly, how about we just dump them?

I know the whole overhaul phase is over, but no point keeping a weak idea around just because of that.

I was just thinking that Assyrian units could have a siege bonus resulting in the tech gains, bypassing the ST altogether. I like the idea of it, but visualizing them in modern times hurts my eyes.

 

[ElliotS]

Honestly, if the siegetowers cause all these problems, and the AI can't even use them properly, how about we just dump them?

I know the whole overhaul phase is over, but no point keeping a weak idea around just because of that.

I'm not against that per say, because siege towers are meh, but I think all they need to the ability to be made all game, scale at max 1+1 per era and have medic 2. Maybe add another skin or two for them in later eras like workboats.

Being made all game would help the AI, being more numerous would make them relevent all game, medic 2 would give them a very useful spot in your military, and reskinning them would prevent the immersion/eyesore complaints.

Make them change into a command tent or something in Renaissance and a helicarrier in modern, and change the name to field command.

 

[Funak]

I'm not against that per say, because siege towers are meh, but I think all they need to the ability to be made all game, scale at max 1+1 per era and have medic 2. Maybe add another skin or two for them in later eras like workboats.

Being made all game would help the AI, being more numerous would make them relevent all game, medic 2 would give them a very useful spot in your military, and reskinning them would prevent the immersion/eyesore complaints.

Make them change into a command tent or something in Renaissance and a helicarrier in modern, and change the name to field command.

I was thinking more in the line of a chariot/horse/spearman replacement.

 

[CrazyG]

I was thinking more in the line of a chariot/horse/spearman replacement.

I would love to have an actual combat UU with Assyria

 

[Funak]

I would love to have an actual combat UU with Assyria

It's boring, but if the alternative doesn't work, it's probably the best solution.

 

[tu_79]

Has any other civ a catapult unique unit? A unique catapult without the penalty against units could be something.

 

[Funak]

Has any other civ a catapult unique unit? A unique catapult without the penalty against units could be something.

Doesn't really fit, as in I don't even think Assyrians had catapults. Also we wanted to hit Ancient era, and catapults are classical

 

[CrazyG]

Siege Tower - The unique unit for Assyria. It is available at military theory, unlike the catapult which it replaces. Has the sapper promotion, which boosts the CS of nearby units when attacking cities.

Its basically the current unit except its actually a combat unit. Probably should weaken sapper and tweak the combat strength.

The issue with this might be a lack of animations

 

[Funak]

Siege Tower - The unique unit for Assyria. It is available at military theory, unlike the catapult which it replaces. Has the sapper promotion, which boosts the CS of nearby units when attacking cities.

Its basically the current unit except its actually a combat unit. Probably should weaken sapper and tweak the combat strength.

The issue with this might be a lack of animations

The old siege-tower was dumpstered because the AI was horrible at using it, I really don't think we should bring that back.